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'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

shunyaekam.com

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Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#31

Post by shunyaekam »

jawns wrote: post #5

I am a Catholic Christian and a moral objectivist, so my thoughts are, of course, colored by my own religious and philosophic views. With that disclaimer out of the way ... I don't think this rings true. It suggests that the morality espoused by a particular religion basically just boils down to public opinion. But there are a multitude of cases from my own and other religions where the message put forth by the relig…

OP here. You're absolutely right. Thank you. I'm reworking the essay.

As I wrote in my top-level comment, what I really want to talk about is

> Is there a canonical parametrization of all social groups that describes their culture?

And not anything related to religion per se.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#32

Post by shunyaekam »

adrianmonk wrote: post #27

I think the word for this is "culture", not "God". I highly recommend taking an anthropology class. It's fascinating and eye-opening stuff. The entire course is basically all about this topic. It's case study after case study of this group or that group (often tribes since it works well as a microcosm) looking at how they operate as a group and what shared beliefs, values, traditions, norms, and rituals they have. In…

OP here.

Yeah, it's definitely about "culture". What I've been trying to express with usage of "God" is how primitive societies, lacking law enforcing institutions etc, tried to instil order through fear of punishment from a power no-one can top, not even the most respected leader.

I don't really have the time to take anthropology classes, but yes, that's what I'm interested in. There's something called "theoretical anthropology" which is spot-on what I'm interested in. Have you heard about it?

The big interest comes from me being frozen out by all peers during most of my life (grew up in a very dysfunctional family, ADHD etc), and I have been interested in social dynamics ever since.

I do standup comedy, which to me feels related in a way I cannot explain.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#33

Post by shunyaekam »

alexmolas wrote: post #11

Given a big enough n every tribe member will be a dissident. Mathematically it can be shown that as n grows the distance between the average vector and any other vector grows, ie: in the limit everyone is a dissident. Therefore I don't think this notion of God makes any sense. I recommend you this notebook for an in depth analysis of the phenomenon https://allendowney.github.io/ProbablyOverthinkingIt/gaussia...

OP here.

Cool. Thanks for the link!

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#34

Post by bsdpufferfish »

ben_w wrote: post #26
bsdpufferfish wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where does this enormous power exist in the US? What powerful institutions or media influence do they control? How would Catholicism represent the mean of public opinion?

jawns wrote of Catholicism, bsdpufferfish and throw__away7391 wrote of Christianity. The latter, broader, category is the majority of the population across the USA. The enormous power exists in the voters within the USA, because it's a democracy filled with many who hold religious views, despite the theoretical separation of church and state. "In God We Trust" on the money is a superficial symptom of that.

> jawns wrote of Catholicism, bsdpufferfish and throw__away7391 wrote of Christianity.

The claim that is addressing is that religion is the mean of popular belief. How does that account for the Catholic experience? Catholics are obviously a minority among American christians and have less political power.

> The latter, broader, category is the majority of the population across the USA.

Indeed. However they are not organized in any way. The percentage who has been to a church more than 3x in their life is probably significantly lower.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#35

Post by bsdpufferfish »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #21
bsdpufferfish wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where does this enormous power exist in the US? What powerful institutions or media influence do they control? How would Catholicism represent the mean of public opinion?

> What powerful institutions or media influence do they control? Christians (even if in name only) have maintained majority control of the executive, judicial, and legislative branches since inception. They often still publicly swear an oath with a hand on the bible.

A few points.

- The founder's didn't even believe in the Bible, likely including George Washington.

- Stated vs revealed preferences are complicated among politicians.

- being jewish clearly has an influence on politicians and businessmen who identify that way, and they often make reference to it. Can you give an example of a president or supreme court judge revealing that kind of influence? George bush doesn't even believe religion is the root issue in the conflict with the Middle East.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#36

Post by borlanco »

shunyaekam wrote: post #31
jawns wrote: post #5

I am a Catholic Christian and a moral objectivist, so my thoughts are, of course, colored by my own religious and philosophic views. With that disclaimer out of the way ... I don't think this rings true. It suggests that the morality espoused by a particular religion basically just boils down to public opinion. But there are a multitude of cases from my own and other religions where the message put forth by the relig…

OP here. You're absolutely right. Thank you. I'm reworking the essay. As I wrote in my top-level comment, what I really want to talk about is > Is there a canonical parametrization of all social groups that describes their culture? And not anything related to religion per se.

That parameterization exists, of course, but are you ready to consider the possibility that it might be unknowable?

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#37

Post by deepfriedchokes »

bsdpufferfish wrote: post #10
jawns wrote: post #5

I am a Catholic Christian and a moral objectivist, so my thoughts are, of course, colored by my own religious and philosophic views. With that disclaimer out of the way ... I don't think this rings true. It suggests that the morality espoused by a particular religion basically just boils down to public opinion. But there are a multitude of cases from my own and other religions where the message put forth by the relig…

Exactly. A huge component of Christianity is separation from the world and standing out against a crowd. There is certainly a popular folk religion, but this is not the essence of religion.

In group/out group ego games are about feeding the narcissists false self, not “values”. In order to support the false self the narcissist must create an out-group in order to place themselves in the in-group. Cults are groups of narcissists. Religions are cults whose founder has died.

Read The Naked Feminist where the author talks about the origins of modesty. It’s all about power and ego.

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