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'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

shunyaekam.com

21–30 of 38 posts

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s what they claim, but it is not true in the slightest. Christians generally maintain a persecution complex even when they are holding tremendous power over others in their society, and this goes back centuries. It is extremely common for Christians to talk about slight curtailment of their ability to oppress others as persecution.

So where does this enormous power exist in the US? What powerful institutions or media influence do they control? How would Catholicism represent the mean of public opinion?

> What powerful institutions or media influence do they control?

Christians (even if in name only) have maintained majority control of the executive, judicial, and legislative branches since inception. They often still publicly swear an oath with a hand on the bible.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#22
I'm not sure many religious people would agree that this is how it works. Theologically, God is never thought to be a bottom-up process, or a democratic process. Historically, I'm not sure it works either, as doctrine has always been a complex mixture of top-down ex cathedra declarations, and reactions to those declarations, and the interaction between what somebody in power wants, what they can get, and what happens next. This feels like somebody casting religion in terms of graphs because they understand graphs and think about them a lot. Like a programmer saying "after all, what is a marriage but a state machine?" or something unproductive like that.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#24
This blog post plays too loose and fast with its terms to be useful as a model of anything:

- It's tautological. A tribe is defined as a connected graph of members with a shared mean opinion, and then God is defined as that shared mean opinion. You can't do that - you can't assume what you're setting out to prove. Nor can you just call something a term (like 'God') and then assume it actually has other properties we associate with the term - you have to demonstrate that. In other words, all this blog post does is propose a definition and fail to show how that definition remotely captures that interesting properties we care about. I can call birdsong "trees" all I want, I doubt I'll be getting calls from the department of forestry anytime soon.

- It assumes a bad foundation. N in the author's formulation is clearly infinite (I challenge anyone to describe a procedure to enumerate all possible opinions), but the author assumes its finite. What they really want to mean is that you can assign a numeric score to a person that describes inclination towards agreement with a particular proposition, which is still workable.

This is, frankly, bad armchair philosophy.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#25

The title explains literally the whole concept: Representing the "opinions" (or more appropriately dispositions ) of each person as a vector, the belief system of a "tribe" (connected set of individuals) is probably the mean of these vectors. And relgions seek to optimize the "morality" they preach (vector they propose as "god") to maximize membership / agreement / centralness of their god. Which of course (author do…

I thought the analogy to linear algebra added very little. It seems more they’ve just littered words about vectors around the word average. They just want the word average.

I think there might be some interesting analogies to vectors out there, so it annoys me that they’ve basically made a head-fake toward them and then just used the word average.

I think you are going in a better direction. I’d call a person’s opinions a point in a many-dimensional space, a space of issues. Then, to come up with a discourse we project those opinions into a some space of ideals. I think what things like the 1D left/right spectrum and the 2D political compass miss is that there isn’t some objectively correct way of picking the unit vectors for the space you are projecting onto. Probably we’d want to do the PCA, but that’s based on the population.

I’d also place the discussion in terms of political opinions rather than some analogy to a god or some gods, since they bring in a lot of feelings.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s what they claim, but it is not true in the slightest. Christians generally maintain a persecution complex even when they are holding tremendous power over others in their society, and this goes back centuries. It is extremely common for Christians to talk about slight curtailment of their ability to oppress others as persecution.

So where does this enormous power exist in the US? What powerful institutions or media influence do they control? How would Catholicism represent the mean of public opinion?

jawns wrote of Catholicism, bsdpufferfish and throw__away7391 wrote of Christianity. The latter, broader, category is the majority of the population across the USA.

The enormous power exists in the voters within the USA, because it's a democracy filled with many who hold religious views, despite the theoretical separation of church and state.

"In God We Trust" on the money is a superficial symptom of that.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#27
I think the word for this is "culture", not "God". I highly recommend taking an anthropology class. It's fascinating and eye-opening stuff. The entire course is basically all about this topic. It's case study after case study of this group or that group (often tribes since it works well as a microcosm) looking at how they operate as a group and what shared beliefs, values, traditions, norms, and rituals they have.

In the modern world and in larger societies, we tend to separate the ideas of ethics, values, religious beliefs, understanding of the natural world, education, and civil order (law, etc.) into different spheres of life, but in smaller groups, they can be all mashed together into a singular "this is what the tribe believes and how it works" thing.

So for example, in the US we don't have a state religion and we do have freedom of religion (mostly), which means our government and our church aren't the same cultural institution. But in some societies, they are. European countries have vestiges of this. Some countries in other parts of the world are literal theocracies.

And in most modern societies, the learned members of societies aren't the same group of people as the priests, but in some societies they are and you have a class of clerics who deal with all intellectual matters including religion, the natural world, and maybe other stuff.

So various societies decouple these different areas of life to different degrees. Some societies (and some elements within a given society) demand more uniformity than others.

---

So, why is culture such a strong force? Why do people ardently believe in things they were taught, regardless of evidence? Why do some traditions have such importance to people? Personally, I think it's because the human brain is hardwired to promote a common culture. I think we have a basic drive to spread cultural ideas and a drive to accept cultural ideas. We humans are social animals. Along with intelligence, it is what makes us successful as a species. For a group to function, it needs some shared rules and beliefs and agreement about what its goals are. In order to agree on those, I think we're built to promote and accept ideas from our culture. It also helps us preserve useful ideas over long periods of time.

But just like any drive, while it has a purpose, it's important to limit and control it. We also have a drive to eat delicious foods, but that has to be controlled. Culture should serve our needs, not the other way around.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#28

This seems to be based on the assumption of the existence of a "tribe" you're supposed to belong to... what if: - there is no such thing - you made it your life goal to belong to no such thing in the first place - you belong to many of those "tribes" in parallel Where does that leave the whole argument?

Respectfully, it sounds like a young person's ideals where they have the idea no one ever thought about their ideas before. Or alternatively, just someone who has very little inclination to be involved in society. Or further, someone that never cared about anyone elses opinions. Valid stance I guess, for certain scenarios.

> Respectfully, it sounds like a young person's ideals

LOL, thanks for the compliment, but - assuming the standard definition of the words "young person" - and also assuming you're talking about me and not the OP's author (not clear), you're way off the mark.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, it sounds like a young person's ideals where they have the idea no one ever thought about their ideas before. Or alternatively, just someone who has very little inclination to be involved in society. Or further, someone that never cared about anyone elses opinions. Valid stance I guess, for certain scenarios.

> Respectfully, it sounds like a young person's ideals LOL, thanks for the compliment, but - assuming the standard definition of the words "young person" - and also assuming you're talking about me and not the OP's author (not clear), you're way off the mark.

In all honesty you sounded imperious about it so I thought you were the young 'un :-)

Probably mistakenly based on my own idea that any kind of idealism tends to be lent to younger people and gets balanced over time.

But re-reading your post, I shouldn't leap to conclusions.

Re: 'God' is the average opinion of your tribe

#30
OP here. I'm reworking the essay quite a bit, e.g. removing the vector space stuff, and the clumsy usage of the word "God".

I've been thinking about these things for so long while not really discussing it with anyone, so there's this soup of associations that doesn't make any sense to any outsider, nor even to me, now when I finally put it down into writing.

Anyway, the essay title will be updated to:

> Is there a canonical parametrization of all social groups that describes their culture?

which captures what I really want to talk about.

If anyone else is interested in this topic, feel free to email me.

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