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Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

nationalgeographic.com

21–30 of 154 posts

Re: Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

#21
post #18
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe that physican of the Chinese emperor was right that mercury is the key to immortality?

Wait, is it? The FDA lied about masks, and bleach, and now mercury? Do you know where I can get some?

The trick is you need to filter it through asbestos before you drink it.

Re: Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selection bias ~= natural selection. If bigmouth buffalo procreate for more years because they live longer with stronger immune systems, then they will eventually make up the majority of the population.

So long as they remain capable of reproduction in those later years

Is that so? I thought it’s enough if they provide an advantage for their genes.

Maybe healthier older fish protect their offspring more effectively.

Re: Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

#24
post #8

"The otolith analysis revealed that about 90 percent of Apache Lake’s buffalofishes were more than 85 years old". That sounds very fishy. Perhaps they just have some sort of genetic code that make them create those new layers of calcium carbonate structures more often than once a year.

It is important to validate any aging method, including otoliths, and there have been cases of system misaging. The fin ray and scale based ages used in West Coast ground fishery management in the 80s resulted in systemic under aging that contributed to the over fishing and collapse of multiple rockfish species, for example. But otoliths in temperate fish species are generally one of the most consistent and reliable aging methods across multiple taxa.

So hopefully otolith aging has been validated for this species in particular or at least a closely related one, but if not it's more likely than not reasonably reliable.

As for the population dynamics, it's not actually necessarily that strange. For many species, mortality occurs almost entirely in the early life history. Once fish escape that period, they are very unlikely to die. This can take in exactly this kind of dynamic were very few young fish are alive at any one point and most of the extent fish are very old.

Re: Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

#25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So long as they remain capable of reproduction in those later years

Is that so? I thought it’s enough if they provide an advantage for their genes. Maybe healthier older fish protect their offspring more effectively.

Yes, you’re 100% correct. You’ve described kin selection. So if grandparent fish can somehow help their grandchildren procreate more, then that can be selected for.

I’ve heard of territory defense helping with fish, but no idea about the fish mentioned specifically.

Also to the previous comment, I think there’s already a fair bit of evidence that older larger fish do continue to breed, (hence throwing back the bigger fish breeders).

But if they stop breeding, and there is no kin selection; then yes, natural selection wouldn’t play a role.

Re: Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

#26
> Buffalofish can go decades between successful reproductions because they require very specific environmental conditions—most of which are still unknown—to procreate. That’s why the fish evolved to live so long: It’s an evolutionary adaptation to account for long periods without breeding, according to Lackmann.

This reminds me of "The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant" by Nick Bostrom [1]. Senescence is engraved in our brains as universal. Just like our expectation about health which should deteriorate overtime.

[1] https://nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon

Re: Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

#27
post #5

> These calcium carbonate structures, which allow fish to hear and sense vibrations in the water, form a new layer each year that can be read somewhat like tree rings. Each time I read dating method like these, I wonder how stable these method are. Sure they are sensitive to water temperature, right? We have not-so-long-term climate changes, periodic solar storms and irregular volcano eruption.. All these are affect…

Yes, they are susceptible to temperature. Seasonal temperature changes are mostly what causes them in the first place. Additionally, researchers have used water temperature to create otolith barcodes in captive fish before release. Otolith bands are the result of seasonal changes in growth rate, which is highly trusted to temperature and is why it's a less reliable technique in tropical or deep water species.

That getting said, climate change and other things are unlikely to overwhelm the seasonal cycles. Yes, it's gotten warmer, but it's still colder in winter.

It's also preferable to have validation for a given taxa, but i wouldn't expect that particular worry to be the failure more.

Re: Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

#28
post #15

It's not clear from the article but animals can generally live quite a bit longer than you'd expect if they continue to grow for their entire life, which is true for some types of fish. Gunk that builds up inside or between cells gets redistributed over larger areas, as do cells that become senescent. And larger size means more space for memory T cells. Those are only some aspects of aging of course.

Don't cancer rates tend to correlate positively with number of cells?

Not for whales so YMMV.

Re: Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

#29
post #9

That is beyond amazing to me. As a layperson in biology related stuff, I'd like to ask: How do scientists estimate the age of non-human animals?

Otoliths are calcium carbonate structures that form in the heads of fishes that help with balance and orientation. Humans actually have similar things in their ear canals, they just don't aggregate and it's more like sand.

These structured grow with the fish and seasonal changes in growth rate cause lighter and darker alternating bands, similar to tree rings. When prepared correctly, these bands can be viewed and counted inter s microscope.

Similar methods are used in fin rays and spines, scales, and vertebrae, although otoliths are generally considered the gold standard

Re: Some fish live beyond 100 and get healthier as they age

#30

It's not clear from the article but animals can generally live quite a bit longer than you'd expect if they continue to grow for their entire life, which is true for some types of fish. Gunk that builds up inside or between cells gets redistributed over larger areas, as do cells that become senescent. And larger size means more space for memory T cells. Those are only some aspects of aging of course.

So, getting fatter as I get older is a good thing? /s
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