Rather compelling to me too. Let’s see what the author says in response.
This was first posted to Reddit on December 20. As best as I can tell, Dawson hasn't made any public reply. He hasn't tweeted since December 8 ( https://twitter.com/pbackwriter ). Here's someone else who was trying to find a reply two weeks ago: https://twitter.com/stevemosby/status/1743002959925883073
I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
151–160 of 195 posts
Re: I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not a writer either and I know nothing about plagiarism, but it would seem harsh to judge a novelist by the same standard as an academic. Academics are expected to use citations, not primarily because reusing a 5-word phrase would in itself be problematic, but because it's important for other scientists to be able to trace the idea back to its original context. Novelists on the other hand can't just include a foo…
The context here though is someone who churns out a lot of books and seems to have a real pattern of lifting a lot of phrases and descriptions near-verbatim from other places. This isn't an author lifting some particularly evocative phrase that they liked.
I haven't read any of this author's books nor have I read the books he is supposed to have lifted these phrases from. So I don't really have an opinion on this particular case.
I guess it would depend on whether he has reused more than some isolated sequences of words from a particular novel. What makes a novel unique for me is mostly the story and the characters.
Re: I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a student anyway. Self plagiarism is a controversial topic in other circumstances. Many academics feel that if they described some element of an experiment some way it’s because that’s the best way they could imagine. If they do the experiment in some other way, or write up something for other publications or whatever it would be absurd to not take their own sentences if they want.
Which would be fine, as long as they cited their first experiment.
But I think my example would not be acceptable for a student. You may not re-use a paragraph you wrote, even if you cite it. Double submission is often treated similarly to plagiarism.
My main point is that what is and isn’t plagiarism is contested, outside of high school and undergraduate students.
Re: I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
#154This is plagiarism by any academic or artistic standard, but as a commercial or legal matter, this level of copying doesn't come close to copyright infringement. And no one should want it to.
This example, for instance, is just a phrase and a cliche at that:
“A majestic wrought iron gate brought in from a Southern plantation”
The accuser can't even get little details like the number of books sold versus downloaded.
I've sat on academic committees judging plagiarism and I would not consider these examples to be an obvious case. Not by any means.
Re: I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
#155This is plagiarism by any academic or artistic standard, but as a commercial or legal matter, this level of copying doesn't come close to copyright infringement. And no one should want it to.
Writers are allowed to write "It was a dark and a stormy night" over again.
Maybe the author liked the expression "fur-trimmed Afghans" - maybe he had the other author's book in front of him maybe he read it the previous day who knows?
As long as he is not copying whole pages verbatim and the end product is enjoyable this is not actionable.
There are plenty of authors who might be good plotters but stink at character development and vice versa.
Re: I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
#156wikipedia articla here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Dawson_(writer)
> In 2020, Dawson's book The Cleaner reached number 8 in the Hardback Fiction section of The Sunday Times' bestseller list after he purchased 400 copies of the book, seeing it to have previously been in position number 13 The scumbaggery is endemic, not isolated to creative repurposing of other people's sentences!
To be financial successful as a writer (or any creative endeavor), if you do not have special access, you must either gain special access or get into the business of publishing yourself.
As noble as “gain access” may seem by comparison, it has very few seats on the ride & the power law seems to have the perverse effect of narrowing the number over time.
The business of publishing is & has always been substantially about manufacturing hype. You might get one generational talent at its start, but mostly you are selling the talent you have.
As much as we all seem to want opportunity to be earned on meritocracy alone, we don’t spread our attention that way and we certainly don’t distribute in any kind of premeditated way to ensure our values are applied to society. Perhaps algorithmic content distribution will change that one day, but so far it mostly hasn’t.
So for any new work, even for authors you know & love, to get sufficient revenue it has to grab significant attention in a brief period of time.
Underlying all hype machines is usually some kind of gameable metric of attention - views, endorsements, critical review.
All publishers have a formula for how they get some of it or they fail at their job. Publishers will be the first to tell you what they do isn’t enough because everyone does it.
“New York Times Best Seller” is a great example. Generally considered a fair standard of what is interesting, it mostly drifts off Amazon rankings with some mollifying factors.
Part of the durability of this system is that when one person has been found to hack those rankings, like here by purchasing 400 of their own books, it appears that they are a dishonest person gaming the system.
Every NYT Best Selling author I’ve met either personally orchestrated, or had it done for them, volume book sales to friend’s businesses & conferences to achieve the same affect.
Perhaps people who are insufficiently clever should be morally punished for the crime of showing us our own foibles.
But the “scumbaggery is endemic,” which is now one of my favorite sentences, is as easily cast as disapproval for a few people as it is a statement of how people in large groups choose what is interesting to talk about.
Either way, we’ve got no solution for society working the way we think it does vs working to exploit the way we think it does.
I thought the Internet might, but so far it seems better at distributing the latter than solving for the former.
Re: I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
#157If it wasn't for the dates I'd say that's LLM completion at play. If you think about copilot etc...that would produce the same pattern. Fragments being obviously matching existing work. Not sure I'd go quite as far as calling an author a plagiarist on the basis of specific short fragments matching. It would need bit more of an overarching say plotline matching or similar. Who here hasn't copied some code off stack ov…
This is a clue that the current fashion of crying ChatGPT at every instance of bad writing is quite silly. Plagiarism, and bad writing in general, predate LLMs by centuries.
Re: I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's no automatic connection from immoral to illegal. I can think of lots of intentional deception that secures unfair gain that is not illegal.
I was under the impression that fraud is fraud regardless of whether it is illegal or simply immoral. (Not a native speaker.) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fraud > 1. (law) The crime of stealing or otherwise illegally obtaining money by use of deception tactics. > 2. Any act of deception carried out for the purpose of unfair, undeserved or unlawful gain. > ...
Re: I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Who here hasn't copied some code off stack overflow? How do you know it’s correct for your need without actually reading and internalizing it? It might even be correct…but not compute what you thought it does. Plugging code from SO into your program is like assuming that if your program compiles it must be correct.
Why do you jump to the conclusion that they didn't read and internalise it after they copied it? That would be stupid and most on here are not stupid.
Re: I believe bestselling author Mark Dawson is a serial plagiarist
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
The underlying concept is using other people's ideas as your own. It's coherent and there's good reason for using it in academia, and probably also in journalism and creative writing.
> other people's ideas How does ownership of ideas work again? And I don't mean citing sources when required, but the tracking and commodification of roots of experience external to existence in understanding. You've got to be trained in mental gymnastics to jump through those logical hoops.