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Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

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Re: Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

#251

Post by Arainach »

ekianjo wrote: post #163
astrange wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economics doesn't use "free well" to model labor markets, but it does have search costs and monopsonies. You can't wait for the ideal job to appear because you might starve first.

starvation is not a problem in developed countries which is the topic we are talking about here...

Homelessness, medical care, and access to food are absolutely significant issues in developed countries. Particularly the compounding effects - if you miss one rent payment, no one will rent you another location, jobs won't hire you with poor credit, and suddenly you're not able to get out of you situation. Particularly in America where nearly a quarter of people have medical debt: https://www.lendingtree.com/personal/medical-debt-statistics...

Re: Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

#252

Post by KennyBlanken »

HALtheWise wrote: post #243

Anime is a $25B industry in terms of revenue , but that doesn't actually imply anything in particular about whether there's any profit in it. I see people make this sort of mistake all the time, and it bugs me. In this particular case, I think the appropriate reaction is very different if the anime industry is wildly profitable vs losing money as a whole, but the article is happy to throw revenue numbers around in th…

Actual facts instead of unsourced opinion: plenty of profit is being made - by the distributors.

https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/t5illb/comment/hz57d...

Also, you seem to be terribly confused by "the company is not making much profit on paper" and "the people in management and running the company are paid plenty." You think management is paid as lowly as the animators?

This is no different from hollywood where studio management make plenty of money and the army of people actually doing the lion's share of the work, especially GFX/SFX, are poorly paid, and accountants make it look like the film barely breaks even.

Re: Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

#253

Post by Arainach »

ekianjo wrote: post #164
kmeisthax wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the other side of the negotiating table either already has a mafia-style cartel pushing your wages down[0], or is a monopsony already. Consolidation in one industry means everyone who does business with them either consolidates or has their margins go negative. Unions are just the working-class equivalent. As for "mafia-style"... I mean, are we calling Hayao Miyazaki a mob boss now? [0] Remember back i…

wage fixing to limit the number of figures in existing 6 figures salaries in Silicon Valley? Please, don't make me cry.

This is a problem in all industries.

There's media companies literally trying to starve out striking workers: https://www.lendingtree.com/personal/medical-debt-statistics...

There's the biggest kind of theft, wage theft: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/15/wage-theft-u...

On and on, this applies to everyone in every industry.

Re: Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

#254

Post by oatmeal1 »

Arainach wrote: post #123
ekianjo wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, there is no such thing as a "fair pay". All of it is driven by demand and supply, always, except when regulations or external factors somehow break things. Second, of course increased costs of production lead to consequences for end users or people who buy the content. We see that all of the time in every industry.

Businesses do not have an inherent right to exist. If you can't pay a living wage, comply with regulations, and be profitable, your business model is not valid and your business should fail and close. Predictions of dire consequences rarely pan out. Fast food employees in Seattle are earning $15-20/+ per hour and prices did not double - in fact they're not significantly higher than in neighboring counties with lower…

> If you can't pay a living wage, comply with regulations, and be profitable, your business model is not valid and your business should fail and close.

The required amount of money to earn a "living wage" is extremely high because of government interference in the economy! And whether you personally find a business model morally "valid" is not a good reason to make economic changes. People deserve a cost-benefit analysis before their livelihood is taken away. The economic consequences of increasing the minimum wage will be just the same as previous attempts. More automation, less customer service, more unemployment among low-skilled workers.

Re: Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

#255

Post by Arainach »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #203
ekianjo wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, there is no such thing as a "fair pay". All of it is driven by demand and supply, always, except when regulations or external factors somehow break things. Second, of course increased costs of production lead to consequences for end users or people who buy the content. We see that all of the time in every industry.

I mean, "minimum wage" is the federal definition of "fair pay". So in that lens it isn't fair. >Second, of course increased costs of production lead to consequences for end users or people who buy the content. We see that all of the time in every industry. When possible. The issue is a lot of anime in Japan still relies in broadcast, so it's much harder to increase the cost of entry. Streaming is becoming more popula…

The Federal Minimum Wage was last updated in 2009. Since then, costs for food have gone significantly up and costs for rent have skyrocketed.

Re: Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

#257

Post by mark336 »

I agree with the guys that said they have to accept the industry to shrink, by paying animators what they deserve. I think that the government is failing here. They should be the ones that defend the worker even if the worker wants to get paid $5/hr. I don't agree that people who want to be animators can't because competition for the fairly paid jobs is high. There should be some kind of non-profit level business for people who want to intern and get paid a few bucks if they really are in love with the industry. But corporations should not be allowed to underpay their staff.

Re: Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

#258

Post by smabie »

kiba wrote: post #188
jstarks wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for animators having to find new work... good? Isn’t this a paternalistic point of view? Why do you know better than the animators who are accepting these jobs? Who are you to tell them that their career choice is wrong?

We have regulations like minimum wages and other labor regulation rules to prevent abuse. Unless you want to say that getting paid a minimum wage paternalistic?

I'd argue yes it is paternalistic, actually

Re: Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

#259

Post by vlovich123 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #244
awesomeMilou wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most union contracts still allow for KPI's and bonuses, which can be customized and based on personal goals you set with your employer. So not sure what you mean?

My question is: what are the downsides to unionizing? Whenever someone presents something as having no downside, it’s particularly important to try to examine that. Comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39074679 are making me think twice, but there must be some catch with unions, or else everyone would do it.

The downsides are the same as any other organization of people with all the same flaws. The goals of the leaders diverging from the interests of the members, unions negotiating contracts that are harmful to the health of the business (although that’s also on the companies involved to some extent).

As for rewards, look at how actors, writers, directors etc get paid - the vast majority of those professions you never hear about and only hear about the ones that are making insane amounts of money from it. The union rules also covers things like residuals and stuff but again afaik it’s all about establishing minimums - the exceptional talent can always negotiate a better deal when they are in demand.

Re: Anime is a $25B industry that pays its animators pennies

#260

Post by dylan604 »

HALtheWise wrote: post #243

Anime is a $25B industry in terms of revenue , but that doesn't actually imply anything in particular about whether there's any profit in it. I see people make this sort of mistake all the time, and it bugs me. In this particular case, I think the appropriate reaction is very different if the anime industry is wildly profitable vs losing money as a whole, but the article is happy to throw revenue numbers around in th…

If your industry is making $25B and there's no profit, your industry is not very efficient. I've been part of working with licensed content, so not actually in the production side from actually animating. However, just from the interaction with them in that manner, you can tell they are not working in anything that would make you think they are doing things efficiently at all. It only seems that would percolate through out that side of things
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