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How Geniuses Think

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Re: How Geniuses Think

#61

Post by sidman »

In the text it states that "Genius often comes from finding a new perspective that no one else has taken".

I think this is clear and people not even considered geniuses can also perform this feat. The defining part is that geniuses seem to come by those alternatives so easily, its just always there. So for example if we devote years to programming we can tell ourselves OK, if i have a problem invoke all my years of experience and look at this problem from many different angles, we can formulate and combine our thinking into something unique that even surprises ourselves because the combination of all the data we we know to get this new idea is far greater then adding the single idea's and pieces of data that we have. Over time we can build on that to get better ideas.

But if i say ok, i know the method of thinking like X helps me do great things when im programming and i try to do the same for say math problems, if i havnt had the experience no matter what I tell myself, i just can not look at the problem from different perspectives or if i do, its not such a great leap, its incremental. Its still step by step, A->B not to A->C, it still follows a logical thought process and we do not surprise ourselves by our solution

For the genius it seems after reading something once or by some method unknown (and having no experience) they can still have all those different perspectives. Then it leaves us normal people thinking, how did they get from A->C without going through the normal steps A->B->C ... this is specially the case when the individual is very young and has managed to soak that information without college or any formal learning ...

Re: How Geniuses Think

#62

Post by Mz »

sidman wrote: post #61

In the text it states that " Genius often comes from finding a new perspective that no one else has taken ". I think this is clear and people not even considered geniuses can also perform this feat. The defining part is that geniuses seem to come by those alternatives so easily, its just always there. So for example if we devote years to programming we can tell ourselves OK, if i have a problem invoke all my years of…

I think a lot of people have their difference of perspective socialized out of them at a pretty young age. My oldest son has a long list of differences from the norm. I was very tolerant if his oddities. Then I got really sick and a) actively avoided being inculcated with the conventional view of my problem and b) bounced a lot of ideas off my son, who knows way more science than I know and was never broken to fit the normal social mold. Then I gradually got well. So I think it is very possible to cultivate that different point of view.

Re: How Geniuses Think

#63

Post by freyrs3 »

EricDeb wrote: post #41
nikcub wrote: post #7

> Richard Feynman, who many acknowledge to be the last great American genius (his IQ was a merely respectable 122). I've always wanted a quick, one-line, anecdote as to why IQ is bullshit. I think I just found it.

How can there be a "last great American genius." Assuming genius is a statistical percentage of the population born every year, wouldn't there be just as many if not more currently than in the past?

The same way there can there be a "last Tuesday".

Re: How Geniuses Think

#64

Post by marquis »

jakeonthemove wrote: post #17
jakeonthemove wrote: post #16

First of all, IQ tests are bullshit. Second, everyone can be a "genius" as long as they put a lot of work into anything. It doesn't take much to become better than the average person - you just have to be slightly better. Once you start working on something for a long time and thinking about it more than 50% (arbitrary, but about right) of all your waking time, your brain will dedicate a big part of its new neurons a…

P.S. Just my opinion, please don't downvote (or downvote just this comment, it's separated for that reason): I don't believe creativity in arts equals genius. I find that most of the expensive pictures of old plain and simply suck and are only popular/expensive because of their exclusivity and because the people who can afford them are willing to pay that price (I understand that - I would probably want to buy the fi…

These 'squares' and 'buckets of paint' are part of a historical view to understanding the history of human development and I would consider you look at each period of art as more than just figurative representations of light, but as representations of how we view ourselves and our humanity. We can go back thousands of years and trace how society has grown through art, from the rock paintings of thousands of years ago when they believed the spirit of the animal existed in it's figurative representation, reflected in the animal worship and the full respect of nature of those cultures, to the 20th abstract work where advances in psychology, human rights, education, etc, lead us to the postmodern age we live in now, where not everything is black or white or is the way it is just because it looks a certain way. Art, great art, has a way of representing who we are, and I would contest your argument that it does not take a genius to unveil the intricacies of a human mind.

Re: How Geniuses Think

#65

Post by sidman »

Mz wrote: post #62
sidman wrote: post #61

In the text it states that " Genius often comes from finding a new perspective that no one else has taken ". I think this is clear and people not even considered geniuses can also perform this feat. The defining part is that geniuses seem to come by those alternatives so easily, its just always there. So for example if we devote years to programming we can tell ourselves OK, if i have a problem invoke all my years of…

I think a lot of people have their difference of perspective socialized out of them at a pretty young age. My oldest son has a long list of differences from the norm. I was very tolerant if his oddities. Then I got really sick and a) actively avoided being inculcated with the conventional view of my problem and b) bounced a lot of ideas off my son, who knows way more science than I know and was never broken to fit th…

Yeh thats true, but i think the key is (as you suggested) he had many differences/oddities from the beginning (a very young age), you being a good father didnt tell him to change or fit the normal mold but encouraged that differences in thought. If that different way of thinking for your son are signs of genius then you cultivated it but its origins can not be explained or learnt by trying to think in the same way .... which frankly sucks.

I guess we can try and get so far, but for most normal people, we can do it to an extent in our field of expertise but still somewhat bound by previously learnt data that needs to be accumulated over a substantial period of time to get that A->C thinking .. without it problems in a differing field are still just solved step by step.

Re: How Geniuses Think

#66

Post by dizidoro »

pippy wrote: post #53
jacquesm wrote: post #32

Think of 'genius' as something you get for free. You can make up for that lack to a certain extent by applying yourself. A person applying themselves with merely average innate ability more often than not will outperform a person born with some windfall. This goes for money, brains, the lot. Apply yourself, that's half the battle. Plenty of people never learn to apply themselves and that includes plenty of geniuses a…

Many of the greatest people in arts, sciences, mathematics are simply people who worked hard and thought outside the box. There's a little bit of luck there too as it's random if another will recognise a person for their hard work. Even after they die, for example Gregor Mendel: a monk who discovered the principals of genetics was realised to be brilliant posthumously. Simply measuring a score on an IQ test isn't goo…

I have i little trouble with this expression:"thinking out of the box". Its not a well defined expression. I don't know exactly how to express it, but it doesn't seems natural. Saying it, seems like they think toootally different from other people. I believe its more about approaching the problem from a lot of perspectives and doing it incessantly.

Re: How Geniuses Think

#67

Post by _debug_ »

mattmanser wrote: post #52
harscoat wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cf. Talent is overrated Geof Colvin, 2008 & "Deliberate Practice" in the making of an expert , Harvard Business Review, K Anders Ericsson, 2008 http://www.coachingmanagement.nl/The%20Making%20of%20an%20Ex...

And hard work oversold.

Thank you. I've been quite sceptical of 10000 hours of Deliberate Practice, etc; esp. after seeing Tiger Woods play golf at the age of two : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxPmzIKBris

It's been a long standing tradition to oversell the power of hard work. I believe the word for it is "hopium".

Re: How Geniuses Think

#68

Post by Mz »

sidman wrote: post #65
Mz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people have their difference of perspective socialized out of them at a pretty young age. My oldest son has a long list of differences from the norm. I was very tolerant if his oddities. Then I got really sick and a) actively avoided being inculcated with the conventional view of my problem and b) bounced a lot of ideas off my son, who knows way more science than I know and was never broken to fit th…

Yeh thats true, but i think the key is (as you suggested) he had many differences/oddities from the beginning (a very young age), you being a good father didnt tell him to change or fit the normal mold but encouraged that differences in thought. If that different way of thinking for your son are signs of genius then you cultivated it but its origins can not be explained or learnt by trying to think in the same way ..…

Sorry to not be clear. I meant that I figured out how to get myself well, in part by intentionally avoiding the conventional views of my condition. My son was enormously helpful and my academic record is reasonably respectable. But it was very much a conscious choice on my part to find another answer in part by intentionally putting on blinders.

Re: How Geniuses Think

#69

Post by Dn_Ab »

jacquesm wrote: post #32

Think of 'genius' as something you get for free. You can make up for that lack to a certain extent by applying yourself. A person applying themselves with merely average innate ability more often than not will outperform a person born with some windfall. This goes for money, brains, the lot. Apply yourself, that's half the battle. Plenty of people never learn to apply themselves and that includes plenty of geniuses a…

Not disagreeing but I think the story is more complicated than that. I think Applying yourself is necessary but not sufficient for even half the battle. Self Application is itself a skill that is randomly distributed across the population. Applying yourself is hard and takes constant training. It also requires a level of determination that itself might be influenced by genetics and certainly aspects of the environment from your pivotal formative years that were outside your control. As you go through your life, events outside your control will influence (positively or negatively) your ability to apply yourself and your mental environment will influence the direction and magnitude of the impact these events have on your ability to self apply. The interplay is intertwined.

And where you are born matters too. If the valley is deeper then it takes more energy to escape. So the same person born on a different continent has to apply themselves more to succeed. They have to apply themselves more to meet the right people and have to work far harder to increase their "luck surface area". They have to spend more energy and do so without becoming bitter.

So there is some backplay of innate ability there. It really does take a lot of talent, intelligence and grit to manage to escape being born to a poor family with no money in a country without clean water, electricity, free education or workers rights. To say: I can't expect to find a job nor afford to pay for school books, let alone to attend school. But I will make it somehow instead of giving up and feeling sorry for myself. My father was one such person. He started his first business at 9 to pay for school and help his family. His only luck was in having a teacher that allowed him to memorize the days notes after school. Seeing the expended efforts and incredible lengths he had to go through just to be level to those born to a better position, it takes a special person to be able to go through that.

It should be clear nothing I said contradicts what you said. But I feel you paint a picture that simplifies things overmuch. The worse your starting point, the more boxes you need to tick. In short, I do not see the same clear linear separation you do.

Re: How Geniuses Think

#70

Post by thaumaturgy »

A reasonable book covering some of this topic is Origins of Genius by Dean Keith Simonton.

Unfortunately, aside from being excessively wordy and light on supporting evidence for some of its assertions, it suffers from the same problem as this article and most of the comments here: people can't agree on what a genius is.

Debates about the foundations of genius are meaningless until we get a better idea of what a genius is. Some people, like this article's author, try to limit the term just to those people in history that have made significant advances in some field or another. But, then they cherry-pick their examples, usually from a list of their personal heroes, and then try to draw some conclusions from that.

Feynman wasn't a household name until really just a few years ago. Citing him as an example of a genius, and then going further to say that he was ("acknowledged by many to be") the last great American genius, is supremely silly. There are brilliant people right now working in every field; what do you think the odds are that, many years from now, after their death, at least one of them might be regarded as a genius by someone writing next century's version of this same article?

On the other end of the spectrum, you have Mensa, a worldwide organization of self-described geniuses, who even have a very serious test to keep out all of the non-geniuses. Should they not be regarded as geniuses? Why or why not?

If we're going to spend any time on utterly vacuous navel-gazing like this ... I think we ought to at least agree first on a useful definition for the thing we're trying to discuss.

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