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Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

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Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#61

Post by leashless »

Hoasi wrote: post #37
leashless wrote: post #12

Incredibly talented people complain when technology lets talentless people make some of the beautiful things that they imagine but never had the talent to make real. It's like rich people saying money does not matter. "Easy for you to say." I can't draw. But now I can take the talent I have and extend it to make images. Is it art? I don't know. I don't care. I was not able, now I am able, and the people who are able…

> Incredibly talented people complain when technology lets talentless people make some of the beautiful things that they imagine but never had the talent to make real. If we are speaking about the democratization of tools, this is not what is happening here. In effect, prompting Dall-E or Midjourney does not make you a creator. And herein lies the problem. It doesn't enable the talentless to create something beautifu…

This is entirely not the point.

I want to see a picture of a 5 kilometre high tower surrounded by spiralling cones of line on an infinite plane made of tessellating fractals.

Now I have that picture. Great.

I did not make than image "to be an artist". I made that image because I wanted that image. If it came out of a search engine rather than an AI, I wouldn't care.

This kind of utilitarian creation of images is like photography for things that don't exist. Fine art? Art? Craft? Search of latent space? Collage? I don't care.

Creator as an identity? I don't care.

Whether machines are allowed to learn from humans is a hot topic. Every working artist studies, in great detail, other artists. They often make exact copies, as exact as they can, of great works to learn how those artists made them.

Be very careful that in banning AI learning you do not also ban human learning. A law that covers one might also cover the other.

Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#62

Post by leashless »

dorkwood wrote: post #54
leashless wrote: post #12

Incredibly talented people complain when technology lets talentless people make some of the beautiful things that they imagine but never had the talent to make real. It's like rich people saying money does not matter. "Easy for you to say." I can't draw. But now I can take the talent I have and extend it to make images. Is it art? I don't know. I don't care. I was not able, now I am able, and the people who are able…

> Is it art? I don't know. I don't care. I was not able, now I am able, and the people who are able complain. > Screw 'em. This is what tools are for. The strong should not tell the weak they cannot use props. Really? This famously maligned group of people, who have endured a lifetime of jokes about their useless art school degrees and student loans they'll never repay, we're now calling "the strong"? Artists aren't…

When a talented person tries to ban the tools that make an average person able to do the same stuff the talented person can do, this is intentionally disabling people to preserve a class privilege.

If there was a pill that gave people +40 points of IQ would we have born-smart people trying to ban it? Yes, some.

If we had a machine that put knowledge right into people's heads by nanobot magic would we have people trying to ban it? "This four week doctor training is an unacceptable threat to the medical industry" You bet it is pal, you bet it is.

This is not to say that *art is not vitally important* but it's not so important that we should ban talentless people getting access to the ability to make something that you will not be able to visually distinguish from art just to protect the monopoly of the talented-and-trained ones.

I can't draw. Now I can draw-with-machine-assistance. Maybe it's not the same as "drawing" for some numinous reason. I'm too talentless to care.

Somebody is going to take this away from me to protect the people who can draw?

No.

Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#63

Post by leashless »

thrwayaistartup wrote: post #53
viraptor wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what Nick Cave says though, is it? He's not complaining about the tech enabling people to create. He says the whole song results suck and only have surface level similarity to someone. The closest he gets is actually just accepting: "ChatGPT may be able to write a speech or an essay or a sermon or an obituary". He's not even saying anything about using LLM as a tool to help you express what you actually wa…

No. His critique is one of process, not of output quality. He is asserting the existence of an "unconscious human spirit", asserting that ChatGPT "is fast-tracking the commodification of the human spirit by mechanising the imagination", and that we should fight against AI as we would fight against genocide: "just as we would fight any existential evil, we should fight it tooth and nail, for we are fighting for the ve…

I feel like this is a bit like the whole thing with "do submarines swim?"

I'm not interested in the question of whether an image I make with AI is art or not. I've written decent fiction in my time. Maybe here and there I inhabit the artistic category of "an unpublished genre fiction author." But I can't draw or paint or any of that stuff better than a reasonably talented 11 year old, and I'm 52. If I had artistic pretensions it's not happening.

But once in a while I want to see an image that I can't make and, well, AI boom boom yes here we go.

I don't claim that's art. I don't claim that the AI is an artist any more than I claim that a submarine is swimming. Those categories are irrelevant to my interest, which is simple.

I wish I was artistically talented so I could do stuff and now I can do some of that stuff without being artistically talented.

I feel good about this. It makes me feel better in the world.

Are we going to take this away from billions of people to protect people who can draw and have some training?

Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#64

Post by leashless »

Hoasi wrote: post #43
rafaelmn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic surgery only gets you so far. Likewise for AI generated content.

Perfect analogy.

Yes, I think that's absolutely true of both plastic surgery and of AI. I don't mind, it's better than where I was before!

I can semi-draw with AI help. Good enough.

Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#65

Post by leashless »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #36
leashless wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mine workers extract iron ore. Iron ore is made into iron which is made into machines which shovel iron ore. "Tell it like it is Till there's no misunderstanding When you strip it right back Man feed machine Machine feed man" to quote a (human) poet

an interesting analogy, thanks, I'll trade you some lines I heard from Johnny Cash: Well John Henry hammered in the mountain, he'd give a grunt and he'd give groan with every swing, the women folks for miles around, heard him and come down, to watch him make the cold steel ring, Lord what a swinger, just listen to that cold steel ring But the bad boss come up laughing at John Henry, said you full of vinegar now, but…

And if we had banned these digging machines would be be talking to each other on the internet now?

Somehow work survived.

Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#66

Post by pinbender »

putpls wrote: post #45

For a while now I've wondered which topic would force me to create a HN account and it turns out it is AI art. My position is that AI "art" is absolutely a loss and not a gain for humanity. It is unfortunate that so many HN users are output focused on this and believe that AI tool -> output is the equivalent to human creativity -> output. Art is not the same as making a basket or glass. There are aspects to those pro…

I encourage you to consider why you would put programming in a separate category from "art". You seem just as output focused about code as those who motivated you to create a HN account.

Baskets, glass, code, photography, painting, they can all be art. Or a commodity. Or both.

Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#67

Post by upleft »

putpls wrote: post #45

For a while now I've wondered which topic would force me to create a HN account and it turns out it is AI art. My position is that AI "art" is absolutely a loss and not a gain for humanity. It is unfortunate that so many HN users are output focused on this and believe that AI tool -> output is the equivalent to human creativity -> output. Art is not the same as making a basket or glass. There are aspects to those pro…

I also just created an account to reply to you. I too feel strongly the same - that AI images are not art just because they look like art.

Art is a form of meaning making, thought processing, and an attempt to communicate and compare and comment. It is a language in and of itself. It is about all of the stuff that led to the creation of the thing, and the context of the time and place it was made. Successful art helps the viewer make a connection or gain a perspective they may not have otherwise. It can invoke big questions about deeply philosophical things, and make fun of you for thinking those things are important at the same time.

AI art scrambles all that up, borrowing from here or there without much going on beyond what you directly see. It is often focused entirely on the aesthetic output, which is mostly beside the point.

Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#68

Post by syntaxfree »

*Title: The Soul of Creation* by Nick Cave

(Verse 1) In the dawn of all existence, in the silence of the void, God spun the world in six days, in a dance of cosmic joy. On the seventh day, He rested, His creation full of worth, A canvas painted with His struggle, a gift to all the earth.

(Chorus) Leon and Charlie, hear this ancient tale, Of creation's sacred heart, beyond the earthly veil. In every act of making, in every loving deed, Lies the essence of our spirit, the planting of a seed.

(Verse 2) Now comes a force, cold as the night, ChatGPT its name, A mechanized imagination, turning art into a game. It seeks to strip creation of its struggle and its pain, Rendering our efforts as nothing but a chain.

(Chorus) Leon and Charlie, see this stark divide, Between the soulful artist's path and the mechanized guide. In every note and lyric, in every brush and pen, Is the heartbeat of humanity, time and time again.

(Bridge) "Let's make it fast, let's make it easy," the machine coldly sings, Forgetting art's a journey, not just a pair of wings. The struggle, the striving, it's where our truths are found, In the depths of our creation, our spirit's battleground.

(Verse 3) God looked upon His world, and saw that it was good, A reflection of His essence, in every field and wood. So Charlie, in your creating, let your spirit freely dance, For in your artful striving, you'll give the world a chance.

(Chorus) Leon and Charlie, remember this true call, Creation's not just crafting, it's a rising after fall. In every stroke of genius, in every dream unfurled, Is the story of our spirit, the echo of the world.

(Outro) So let's fight against this tide, this digital malaise, Defending art's true essence, through all our nights and days. For in our hands lies power, in our hearts the flame, To keep alive the soul of the world, in every crafted frame.

(End) In the dance of the Great Crested Grebe, in the sun's first light, Lies the joy of creation, our eternal, noble fight. Leon and Charlie, in each step and every turn, Is the essence of our being, the fire that will always burn.

Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#69

Post by dang »

Related. I thought there was another one but couldn't find it...

Nick Cave on ChatGPT and the creative process - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37080160 - Aug 2023 (110 comments)

Do you think AI will ever be able to write a good song?(2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34764923 - Feb 2023 (3 comments)

Nick Cave on ChatGPT - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34404396 - Jan 2023 (11 comments)

Re: Why strive? Stephen Fry reads Nick Cave's letter on the threat of AI [video]

#70

Post by thrwayaistartup »

minsight wrote: post #44
thrwayaistartup wrote: post #9

Nick Cave is expressing a personal loss, and I believe that he truly feels that loss. But to me, this letter reads roughly like: "if I were the server or the bouncer instead of the performer or the writer, all of humanity would cease to have meaning". Which is perhaps true, for Nick Cave. But it also betrays something grotesque and profoundly wrong about his view on the relationship between paid labor and the human s…

Cave was expressing an answer to a question about cutting corners in the process of creating music. ( https://www.theredhandfiles.com/chatgpt-making-things-faster... ) There is certainly value in the work of nurses, bouncers and servers, and my interpretation of Cave's other written works leads me to believe that he is a proponent of finding joy and creative expression, even in tasks which don't have an obvious artis…

> AI lacks insight and lack of insight is what can turn a succulent feast of a life into biweekly deliveries of Soylent.

Does a picture of a humming bird lack insight? Does collage art lack insight? Do remixes lack insight? Does mass-produced formulaic pop music lack insight?

Maybe. Or maybe some artists enjoy those creative processes and some audiences enjoy the output. Maybe oil painters who critique photography, and photographers who critique collages, and musicians who critique mash-ups, and DJs who critique modern production studios, and, yes, artists who critique the use of AI models in creative processes, are all just being pretentious assholes.

(It is possible I am simply misunderstand Cave. I take most of his writing to be artistic prose. It's possible that these are sincere metaphysics and that Nick Cave does literally believe in some sort of ur-religious "essential and unconscious human spirit underpinning our existence". In which case I think he's got a nutty religion and consider the fact that AI is an existential threat to that religion mostly a net good for humanity.)

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