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On Leibniz Notation

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61–70 of 101 posts

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#61
post #19

> "what's so special about x ?" Does f(x) mean one function, whereas f(y) means a completely different function? This looks like the difference between parameters of a function and arguments. In the definition, you have the parameter x, used internaly and, when calling the function you use an argument - located in the calling context. In python: def f(x): return 2*x ## x is a parameter x = 3 y = f(x) # x in an argume…

Never heard of this distinction between parameter and argument, to me they are homonymes. To me, argument or parameter refers to a term in the function definition as well as a term in the function call.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#62
post #20

Such discussions show that teaching of calculus often tends to be overly algebraic, for no good reason. Clearly, Leibniz notation does not intrinsically contain any deep insights since at one point Leibniz himself was erroneously induced by it to think that d(xy)= d(x)d(y), which is false. Newton on the other hand thought in terms of simple geometric concepts (areas), which make it crystal clear that d(xy) = x d(y) +…

But you do have 1/(dy/dx) = dx/dy and you can get the insight deep if you follow on with actually using differentials properly, as in the paper linked here in this very thread by LudwigNagasena.

But then of course, you see that d^2 f/dx^2 is a bad expression for the second derivative, and that you should actually use differentials properly and write it as (d^2 f)/(dx)^2 - df/dx (d^2 f)/(df)^2.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#63
post #43

Not just Leibniz notation, but for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_derivative is total bonkers, every single equation on it means the total opposite than in the rest of the mathematics. Wtf is > the partial derivation of a function f(x,y,z...) or deriving a function respect to a variable? Functions don't have variables, named variables, that's Python, not math[0]. In math expressions can have free varia…

> Functions don't have variables, named variables, that's Python, not math[0]. No, Python named arguments are a good analogy for Leibnitz notation.

[deleted]

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#64
Is there a good explanation of u substitution (or any other integral stuff that makes use of the denominator) using non-Liebnitz notation? Is it just that ∂1 is actually ∂/∂1, and thus you can begin using ∂1 the way you would have used ∂x?

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, they start counting function arguments from 0, so _2 is indeed the velocity. But I do agree with your main point that the order of arguments is irrelevant, and it is a mistake to make it a first-class citizen of the notation.

> FWIW, they start counting function arguments from 0, so _2 is indeed the velocity. Dammit yes, you’re right! Well, it’s not a bit less confusing. The most frustrating is that they have a point: we need to be stricter about disambiguating functions and numbers, and derivation really should be an operator. But you don’t need to go all the way to zero-indexing (which is definitely not a thing in the fields I know) or…

> But you don’t need to go all the way to zero-indexing (which is definitely not a thing in the fields I know) or positional arguments. This is putting abstract notation purity above practical concerns.

Yes, it's definitely a perspective influenced strongly by computer science.

> It’s not surprising they like Scheme.

In fact one of the authors, Gerry Sussman, is one of the original inventors of Scheme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Jay_Sussman

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#66
post #5

It's probably because I'm an ignorant idiot, particularly when it comes to calculus, but this read like a revelation: "the concept of a function shouldn't depend on what your favourite letter is!" Very helpful answer, thanks for posting.

> the concept of a function shouldn't depend on what your favourite letter is On the other hand, you can also argue that the concept of a function shouldn't depend on your favourite ordering of its variables. Thus, if you have a potential that oscillates in time, such as: V = (1 + sin(t))/sqrt(x^2+y^2) You may want to take derivatives with respect to each variable, such as dV/dt, dV/dx and so on. Their meaning is cle…

In what you have written, V is not a function, but a value calculated from some other values, so it does not make sense to differentiate it. If you instead write:

    V : ℝ³ → ℝ
    V(t,x,y) = (1 + sin(t))/sqrt(x^2+y^2)
then it’s clear what D_2(V) means.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, they start counting function arguments from 0, so _2 is indeed the velocity. But I do agree with your main point that the order of arguments is irrelevant, and it is a mistake to make it a first-class citizen of the notation.

The order isn't really irrelevant, though, is it? If you take the total derivative and represent it as Jacobian matrix, you hopefully won't argue that the order of the matrix entries won't matter. (Especially if you later on employ it in a chain rule.)

I think that there are two cases of practical importance, which have incompatible requirements.

The first case is where you have a N-dimensional vector space where all dimensions have the same units. The standard example would be the Newtonian 3D space. Depending on what you are trying to do, you can view it as a collection of coordinate-free abstract vectors, as a triple (x, y, z) of real numbers, or as an array X[i] of three coordinates in a given basis. In this case I would agree that X[0], X[1], X[2] is better than (x, y, z), the order matters, and you can define the Jacobian is a 2D array that represents a certain abstract derivative in a given coordinate system. I would argue that the formalism of Sussman and Wisdom (which they got from Spivak) is totally adequate to this case, and perhaps even the best possible.

The second case is the one of the Lagrangian that parent mentioned, where L is a function of the triple (t, x, v). You could pretend that (t, x, v) form a vector space, but this definition won't get you far. I would regard (t, x, v) = t * (1, 0, 0) + x * (0, 1, 0) + v * (0, 0, 1) as meaningless because it is adding time, space, and velocity. You cannot really do rotations or general linear transformations in this space. You can define a Jacobian matrix if you want, but now all entries in the matrix have different physical units. In this case I would say the fact that v is the third element of the tuple is irrelevant, and that the tuple is better regarded as a map from symbolic names "t", "x", and "v" to real numbers. I would argue that the Spivak formalism is inadequate in this case, and it seems that many physicists on this thread think the same for essentially the same reason.

This difference is kind of analogous to double X[3]; vs struct { double t; double x; double v; }; From one point of view they are the same, but in practice they have totally different meanings.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#68
post #43

Not just Leibniz notation, but for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_derivative is total bonkers, every single equation on it means the total opposite than in the rest of the mathematics. Wtf is > the partial derivation of a function f(x,y,z...) or deriving a function respect to a variable? Functions don't have variables, named variables, that's Python, not math[0]. In math expressions can have free varia…

The verb is "to differentiate", not "to derive". You differentiate to find the derivative.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#69
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but those operations over what usually appears at the denominator of the derivative purely for notation purpose has always looked to me as complete magical garbage. You will be delighted to discover that they are in fact not magical or garbage. > What object is "dx" ? is it a number ? a limit ? is it zero ? can i divide another number by it ? dx is a differential one-form. You can think of it as a generalisation of…

>dx is a differential one-form. You can think of it as a generalisation of a gradient, if you like. These are very important in Differential Geometry. This really doesn't help beginners. At all. There are formal contexts where we can reinterpret division by zero and have it make sense. Should I start telling students that division by zero is allowed? Should I start teaching intro calculus students that 1+2+3+...=-1/1…

I replied with what the thing is called, explained what it can be used for, and recommended an introductory text to learn more.

If you can come up with a more helpful reply in as many words, then please do so.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#70
Funnily, I disagree with almost every point in the most upvoted answer. For me (as a physicist by training), the f' notation is a shorthand, and df/dx is the more clear notation. Because especially in physics, you often deal with functions that are dependent on multiple variables. Do I want to differentiate wrt. time or position? You can use "f dot" for the time derivative, but in more complex cases you are out of luck. How can you distinguish between f(x) and f(t) which are very different functions? And what if the variables depend on each other? You need a notation that distinguishes between treating "x" as a variable, and "x" as something that is dependent on some other variable.

The nice thing about Leibnitz calculus [1] is that you can do things like reduce fractions with dx'es, you can flip things around and calculate dx/df, the chain rule is not a rule that you have to memorize but just an obvious expansion etc., and it mostly just works. I don't recall seeing an explicit proof why it works (except for some specific cases), or a list of exact rules, but I'm sure that exists and it would have been neat to have seen that in my studies.

[1] calculus here in the sense of German Kalkül, a notational system and a method of mechanically manipulating symbols, and not neccessarily meaning "differential and integral calculation", although "the" calculus is the prime example of "a calculus" of course.

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