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Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

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Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#121
I have said this before and attracted downvotes for it, but here goes.

There are two possible arguments here to try, and I have only ever seen people lobbying against this change use the one, less persuasive argument. That argument is what I will call the "incentives" argument: that change in the rule provides bad incentives against doing R&D. This argument goes along the lines of "this will cost jobs for R&D workers" or "this will reduce the competitiveness of the US." The other possible argument (that I have not seen cited) is that "R&D" work can be operational, and that forcing capitalization of R&D expenses is a bad accounting practice. This Twitter thread only argues the former.

The glaring problem with the incentives argument is that it gives up the point that the ability to operationalize R&D work is a subsidy for technology and software companies. This is equivalent to asking for a subsidy at a time when startups can pull $100 million with no product and other technology companies are reaping record profits. That is not a particularly persuasive argument, and it triggers bad emotional reactions from people. If not for the SBIR companies getting absolutely shafted, the responses to this argument I have seen from non-tech people range from "fuck you" to "deal with it."

The accounting argument is boring and sort of technical, but also a lot harder to argue against and doesn't trigger a negative emotional reaction. All of the people making the rules will understand it, and the IRS could even make the clarification on what is and isn't "R&D" on an accounting basis without an act of congress. They have kind of done this, but have not been pushed nearly far enough.

Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#122
post #71

How does one determine whether work done by an employee is classified as R&D or as an immediate expense? If a programmer is building an app that isn't yet offered as a product, is that R&D? If a programmer is maintaining an app that is offered as a product, is that NOT R&D?

Well the “good” thing about this law is that it also classifies ALL software development (and any supporting activities!) as R&D. And yes that’s as absurd as it sounds, but it’s true.

That's not strictly correct.

Bug fixing, for example, is not covered by Section 174.

Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t like a loan where the longer the term the smaller the payments. It’s the reverse. You essentially pay taxes now on income, and can’t deduct costs for 5 or 15 years. So it’s kind of like pre-paying taxes and not getting the money back for 5/15 years. Say that you need to go borrow cash to cover the shortfall. Is it cheaper to borrow money for 5 or 15 years?

Hah I'm still trying to understand how software developer pay should be a deduction at all.

As far as I understand it, it’s normal to deduct most all kinds of payroll as an operating expense, and historically that’s included software developers too. The way it was explained to me, the tax man gets his bite when the people receiving the paychecks pay their own income taxes.

The recent changes mean you can still do that for most staff EXCEPT developers, even if the devs are doing operational work instead of work that feels more conventionally like R&D. So you have to come up with a bundle of cash now to pay tax on most of the developers’ salaries, even though they’ll give it back to you over 5-15 years.

Essentially you making a free loan to the government for a decade or whatever, except the money’s probably not free to you.

Of course I can think of situations where the development effort really was more R&D than operational, and the revenue stream matched: the first few years operated at a loss already, and the deductions might have more been useful in 5 years when the revenues were flowing in from a mature product. But I think they might have ways to carry forward losses to future tax years or something to deal with situations like that?

Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#124
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See section 5 of this IRS guidance: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-23-63.pdf tldr: if they're developing new features, it has to be capitalized; if they're doing maintenance then it can be immediately expensed

This is actually great if true! Maybe companies will finally be incentivized to start fixing their bugs rather than cramming unwanted features and UI re-designs into their software products! However I doubt they'd leave such an obvious loophole. Surely the IRS's definition of R&D includes all types of software development activity.

> However I doubt they'd leave such an obvious loophole. Surely the IRS's definition of R&D includes all types of software development activity.

I literally just linked to the IRS' definition that says not all software development activity is included.

Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#125
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See section 5 of this IRS guidance: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-23-63.pdf tldr: if they're developing new features, it has to be capitalized; if they're doing maintenance then it can be immediately expensed

This is actually great if true! Maybe companies will finally be incentivized to start fixing their bugs rather than cramming unwanted features and UI re-designs into their software products! However I doubt they'd leave such an obvious loophole. Surely the IRS's definition of R&D includes all types of software development activity.

It's not an "obvious loophole". They are quite specific about this. New features, new capabilities: R&D, must be amortized. Bug fixes for existing features: expensable.

The gray zone comes when a bug fix actually provides a new feature (e.g. something that wasn't actually usable before).

Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#126
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the “good” thing about this law is that it also classifies ALL software development (and any supporting activities!) as R&D. And yes that’s as absurd as it sounds, but it’s true.

This is a good thing. Prior to this, I had to make up a paper explaining why my team was R&D with help from an outside consulting group annually. It was always a sham. We were building product.

Your consultants were helping you get a tax credit for R&D under section 163. That has not changed - not all software development is R&D for section 163 purposes, and you still need to justify why you're classifying software development as R&D for section 163.

What has changed is section 174 - previously all software development could be expensed (without any justification needed) and now it must be capitalized.

Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#127
This is going to wipe out a lot of small businesses, including innovative software dev startups.

Here’s a simplified example of this works: Let’s say you’re a four person software dev startup. Everybody is making, say, $125K to get by. That’s $500K in salary expense which normally you can write off as expenses against revenue/funding. For this example, let’s say somehow you also generated $500K in revenue/funding, i.e. you just broke even.

Currently, you would (of course) owe zero taxes. Under the new tax rules, you couldn’t write off those R&D salaries as expenses, only amortize them over 5 years. That is, your salary expenses for this year is only ~ $100K, and this you made a $400K ‘profit’ (!!) on which you owe taxes ($100K).

Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#128

I have said this before and attracted downvotes for it, but here goes. There are two possible arguments here to try, and I have only ever seen people lobbying against this change use the one, less persuasive argument. That argument is what I will call the "incentives" argument: that change in the rule provides bad incentives against doing R&D. This argument goes along the lines of "this will cost jobs for R&D workers…

Having been an accountant early in my career before becoming a software developer, I'm amazed that this isn't the primary argument.

Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#129
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Precisely. They didn’t think of their work as R&D because it was not R&D. Frankly, they should have seen this coming Don't you have this backwards, or do I? Software development is now going to be treated as R&D, which means that costs have to be amortized. That's not an tax advantage, it's a disadvantage. All the other businesses you list get to expense their labour costs. But we agree, software dev should not be…

MasterYoda900 has it backwards. However, my CPA said software engineer salaries are only categorized as R&D before the product is launched. So this only affects new startups pre-launch... if my CPA is correct.

Your CPA is not correct.

Any software development costs related to improving the product by providing new features must be amortized. Only clear bug fixes can have costs that are expensable.

This is made extremely clear in the IRS guidance document.

Re: Thousands of small businesses are struggling because of R&D amortization

#130
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this year if I spend $150k on foreign research (which includes ANY software development), and then I also earn $150k in revenue: despite me having $0 in the bank, I will only be able to deduct 1/15 of that, or $10k. In other words, I’ll be taxed as if I made $140k of profit, despite me not having any actual money left over. You can see how if this was 5 years, then I could deduct 1/5 and I would be taxed on $120k…

I thought employee wages were always deducted. Is that not the case ?

Under the new section 174, software developer salaries are no longer expensable.
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