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Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

the74million.org

41–50 of 209 posts

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#41

I'm a strong advocate for scrapping all degree requirements to every profession, perhaps even in law (ie., banning most employers from asking). This shifts the burden on to the employer to make a reliable assessment of the applicant. This would have two, imv, favourable effects: 1) a university education would compete on its merits as education with all alternatives; 2) breaking the rent-seeking monopolies universiti…

Law? Medicine? Engineering? Would you want the bridges to be designed by anyone with any degree? I realize there's lots of sillyness in degree programs, but certainly the rigor is worth something, right?

Sure, so assess for rigour.

A person who had studied mathematics and physics until 18 could then over two or three years easily, consume the relevant engineering curriculum from MIT/stanford/etc. if they wanted to avoid the fee's of a university education.

A business will never let some jnr hire actually design a bridge to be actually built. Most of the relevant education comes from years on the job, in almost all jobs.

All that applicants need have is enough prior conceptual foundations to cope during that on-the-job training.

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#42

I'm a strong advocate for scrapping all degree requirements to every profession, perhaps even in law (ie., banning most employers from asking). This shifts the burden on to the employer to make a reliable assessment of the applicant. This would have two, imv, favourable effects: 1) a university education would compete on its merits as education with all alternatives; 2) breaking the rent-seeking monopolies universiti…

> This shifts the burden on to the employer to make a reliable assessment of the applicant. It shifts the burden on the employer to make an alternative assessment of the applicant. If what they're using now isn't reliable, but convenient, why would any alternative be?

I read the parent comment differently.

In a hypothetical future where there is no degree requirement, whatever they’re doing now to assess applicants is not relevant. In that scenario, the system has fundamentally changed, and I think this strongly implies that employers will now need to look for ways to screen candidates other than “has degree”.

As things stand now, there is an expectation that holding a degree is in itself valuable and that the holder has already been assessed by the educational institution that granted the degree.

Put another way, the lack of a reliable process now is the point. If I’m an employer, the reliability of the signal that is the degree the applicant holds is as variable as the standards of the various institutions granting those degrees. In a world where the degree is no longer a primary signal, employers must by necessity establish some other assessment criteria, and since that criteria is set by the employer, it’s at least more reliable than making decisions based on various other organization’s assessment criteria.

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#43
post #5

Makes sense to me. I attended public school all my life. Everyone I knew more or less had the same out look on formal education, means to an end, can I just get the spark notes, thanks. In college I interacted with a strange life form called a "homeschooler". Almost without exception they were smarter, better read, and had a desire to learn. Educating children seems to be far more than degrees, licenses, and CE credi…

You interacted with a homeschooled student who made it to college. Huge difference compared to the average homeschooled student.

Can we please not get into the homeschool flame war here again? Every time it comes up it turns into a pointless war of anecdotes, because the data on outcomes simply isn't strong enough for it to be anything else (trust me, I've tried).

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#44

I'm a strong advocate for scrapping all degree requirements to every profession, perhaps even in law (ie., banning most employers from asking). This shifts the burden on to the employer to make a reliable assessment of the applicant. This would have two, imv, favourable effects: 1) a university education would compete on its merits as education with all alternatives; 2) breaking the rent-seeking monopolies universiti…

Law? Medicine? Engineering? Would you want the bridges to be designed by anyone with any degree? I realize there's lots of sillyness in degree programs, but certainly the rigor is worth something, right?

You can become a licensed Civil or Aerospace Engineer and sign off on bridges and planes without an academic degree. Inversely, a degree does not make you a licensed engineer.

You have to pass the same rigorous tests. Degree can be substituted for relevant work experience.

The biomedical engineers designing your artificial heart and gene therapy have no professional licensing requirements whatsoever. A professional license to do medical engineering doesn't even exist.

https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/flowchart_for_fe.pdf

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#45
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You interacted with a homeschooled student who made it to college. Huge difference compared to the average homeschooled student.

I was completely unschooled prior to college and while I did fine in school I was generally very poorly adjusted. I actually don't know a single homeschooled person who came of age nearly as prepared for the world as anyone I know who went to primary school.

Can you expand on how you felt unprepared? My experience doesn't mirror yours.

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#46

I'm a strong advocate for scrapping all degree requirements to every profession, perhaps even in law (ie., banning most employers from asking). This shifts the burden on to the employer to make a reliable assessment of the applicant. This would have two, imv, favourable effects: 1) a university education would compete on its merits as education with all alternatives; 2) breaking the rent-seeking monopolies universiti…

This just sounds like an argument that degrees are not good proof of qualification, but it assumes that a certification would be. Might certifications not fall prey to the same decline in quality as degrees, which used to act as an imprimatur?

My proposal would be that organisations provide domain-specific assessments for particular jobs, rather than there be any certification outside of state-licenced areas.

Eg., if you want to be a graphic designer, apply, perform the "graphic designer assessment by AssessCorpX" as required by IndustryX and so on.

Basically just taking the examiniation function away from universities into the market, and making it industry specific. I think these are the 'natural incentives' businesses have, and these are distorted by the gov monopoly granted to universtiites (ie., their degree awarding powers).

Prior to the era of mass university education people were hired based on a judgement of their suitability for the role, and then trained to do it over a period of years. That's still how things work.

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This shifts the burden on to the employer to make a reliable assessment of the applicant. It shifts the burden on the employer to make an alternative assessment of the applicant. If what they're using now isn't reliable, but convenient, why would any alternative be?

Because the people best placed to assess a candidate for a role are those who know the duties of that role in detail. Much of what's taught at university has marginal benefits beyond a core, much smaller, cirriculum. Take something fairly complex like game development, say. Now: do some linear algebra, geometry, programming, etc. assessment in a wholistic way. Maybe a quick quiz for initial filter, then a hackathon w…

I don't disagree, but that doesn't seem to address the point. If a hiring organization doesn't bother to assess that now, why would the above-proposed change make a difference?

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#48

I am very close to obtaining an elementary school teaching degree (46 of 49 credits completed), and as of this year I am a full time teacher at a private school (which doesn't have to care whether I officially have a license). My masters program is considered among the best in the state. Unfortunately, I don't have many good things to say about my masters program. The majority of my classes have been interesting but…

That seems to match some real-world examples. "plug doors" anyone?

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#49

Underlying problem: people don't want to pay teachers enough.

Compensation is a vector. Teachers who are government employees receive their cash compensation, paid leave, summers off, job security through formalized tenure, generous pensions, generous health care benefits, and some lifetime benefits if they reach retirement age.

Re: Emergency-hired teachers without degrees as effective as licensed educators

#50
Some additional context from TFA, which is actually pretty insightful.

> One preliminary explanation from the New Jersey study was that the emergency licensed teachers were working in schools that had a record of helping students make strong academic gains. It’s possible that the schools had supports in place, such as teacher coaching, a strong curriculum or something else that compensated for less training... Another recent study, out of Oakland, California, backs up this theory.

> There’s some evidence that teacher licensure tests are mildly accurate predictors of who will be a good educator. All else equal, a school would be better off selecting candidates with a higher test score, especially if they’re going to be teaching math or science. But that general rule would mischaracterize a lot of teachers — some test well but don’t have great classroom management or interpersonal skills, while others may not test well but are effective at working with children.

I'm not an expert, but my impression of modern classrooms is that teachers don't have as much leeway to choose what or how they teach, compared to, say 50 years ago. They have a strictly defined curriculum to get through, and they're generally spending a lot of their classroom hours teaching to standardized tests. Might the difference in "classroom management" skill, which is evidently untested in teacher licensing, be the most significant thing left that can make one teacher better than another? That is, if we make teachers (essentially) read from the same script, maybe it's all in the delivery?

And if this is untested in teacher licensing, maybe it's somewhat evenly distributed between licensed and unlicensed teachers?

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