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On Leibniz Notation

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Re: On Leibniz Notation

#21
I'm currently reading "Calculus Reordered: A history of the big ideas" by David M Bressoud, which really helped me contextualise all the peculiarities of calculus.

It really does feel like a hodgepodge of poorly fitting parts that could use some revision in terms of notation and teaching, but I feel like that's part of the charm.

I like that it encodes so much history and culture "up front". It reminds me of PHP. There is no way a good language designer would create PHP intentionally but as ugly as it was, it was brilliant in 1999. Index.php and you're done.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to this question is answered in the FA. Leibiz notation is confusing except in the most simple cases. For example: > Isn't fractional form useful, for example solving differential equation y = dy/dx => dy/y = dx? What exactly does "dy/y = dx" mean? What is on the LHS and what is on the RHS? It acts like a mnemonic scribble for an intermediate step. It doesn't have any mathematical meaning.

> What exactly does "dy/y = dx" mean? As I understand, dy/y = dx means that the derivative of 1/y with respect to y equals to the derivative of 1 with respect to x.

The derivative of 1 with respect to x is zero, since the derivative of any constant function is zero.

So you must be saying that the derivative of 1/f(x) with respect to x is zero for any f(x), where f is a differentiable function, with non-vanishing derivative near x (for it to be defined in the first place).

That doesn't make any sense.

Please don't respond to this. It's getting absurd.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#23

Briefly, the way you make sense of this is by being consistent with notation and being aware of definitions. f is a function. f(x) is not a function. f(x) is an element of the range. Unfortunately, I'm sure growing up your teachers probably referred to f(x) as being the function. If you just simplify the function composition and clearly label objects, I'm pretty sure you won't have this kind of confusion. It really s…

If you take x as a stand-in for a number, then df/dx simply makes no sense, df/d(5) is either nonsense or division by zero. Your approach doesn't seem to make more sense out of Leibniz notation, unless I misunderstand what you mean by f(x) being an element of the range.

If you know a language with function types, then you can think of it as

  f : R -> R
that is, f having a type signature as a function, and

  f(x) : R
having a type signature of a float (or: being a float). And so on.

I've been using this approach to type-check calculus equations. Unfortunately the article in the top comment [0] says that

> Note that f means something different on the two sides of the equation!

so the Leibniz notation might be more ad-hoc than I thought, and I can't just type-check them, actually have to reverse engineer the intent of the authors. I have to think about this. For example I remember someone giving me 3 exercises from Stewart calculus, and I gave 2 back that those equations don't even type-check, maybe there are some notation abuses I am not aware of.

[0] https://mitp-content-server.mit.edu/books/content/sectbyfn/b...

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#24

The discussion in Sussman and Wisdom's "Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics", about how the Euler-Lagrange equations don't literally make sense as traditionally written, has long resonated with me: https://mitp-content-server.mit.edu/books/content/sectbyfn/b... They also adopt a notation where partial derivatives are taken with respect to "argument slots".

This specific notation makes no sense in a Physics context. The names of the variables encode information that is lost if you use purely positional arguments. If I take a state function F(V, T) and its partial derivative wrt T, things like notation ∂_2 F get much murkier and context dependent than ∂_T F or ∂F/∂T, which benefit from a general consistency of notations. Ultimately, the function F has a physical meaning and the orders of the arguments is completely irrelevant, but what these arguments are is important. The Leibniz notation should certainly be improved or replaced, but not by this.

I mean, they even fuck it up in the sentence after their equation:

> The Lagrangian L is a real-valued function of time t, coordinates x, and velocities v; the value is L(t, x, v). Partial derivatives are indicated as derivatives of functions with respect to particular argument positions; ∂_2 L indicates the function obtained by taking the partial derivative of the Lagrangian function L with respect to the velocity argument position.

From what they say at the beginning the second argument is the position, not the velocity, so ∂_2 L is ∂_x L, not ∂_v L. Which is a really easy mistake to make because every single equation needs to go back to the definition of L to make sense.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#25
I don’t like the accepted answer here, because it criticises Leibniz notation without explaining what it means – and apparently without actually _understanding_ it, since the author several times writes words to the effect of “this is nonsense” in reference to expressions that in fact make perfect sense when interpreted correctly.

The salient issue that the author of that answer seems not to have understood, which we here in the land of the Y Combinator should have less trouble with, is the distinction between free and bound variables.

In lambda calculus, variable binding is explicit and denoted by a lambda. Leibniz notation binds variables in just the same way: the operator (d/dx) binds the variable x in the expression to which it is applied.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#26
post #7
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While we're at it, it's probably not the best idea to represent derivatives as fractions either (for the sake of notational consistency). Do you mean dy/dx? Why isn't that a good idea? Isn't fractional form useful, for example solving differential equation y = dy/dx => dy/y = dx? What are the alternative you'd prefer: prime notation, D-notation, or else?

I don't know about the person you're responding to, but those operations over what usually appears at the denominator of the derivative purely for notation purpose has always looked to me as complete magical garbage. What object is "dx" ? is it a number ? a limit ? is it zero ? can i divide another number by it ? I think this notation is single handly the reason why i've never been comfortable with calculus. PS: i've…

> i've stumbled a few years ago on a math book that described the original concept of "infinitesimals" and how a whole different way of doing calculus exists.

Was this book "Elementary Calculus: An Infinitesimal Approach", by Keisler? It's an awesome book. It's free to download at https://people.math.wisc.edu/~hkeisler/calc.html

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#27
post #15

> So, until you are able to perform this "translation" from precise to imprecise notation, I suggest you stick to the precise notation, until all the fundamental concepts are clear, and only then abuse notation. I agree with this part. I think in teaching, the precise notation should be taught first and everyone should understand it well. But later on, it will make communication and even just doing calculations easie…

When starting multivariable calculus it might be a good place to start with clarifying this, at the latest.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#28
The choice of denominator letters are not irrelevant in Leibniz notation. They are chosen in conjunction with parameterization in order to suppress arguments to avoid being lengthy. Similar to how Einstein summation convention is used to suppress summation symbols. All notational conveniences lead to confusion in certain scenarios.

Given a field W, you will want to talk about various derivatives of the field. However, you might not be interested in the derivative of the fields with respect to coordinate fields like `\partial W / \partial x^i`, you might be interested in derivatives of that field with respect to some other field like `\partial W / \partial \lambda_i`. Then you end up introducing all kinds of auxiliary notation for the functional representations of the field. You end up with `\tilde{W}(\lambda_i)` and `\bar{W}(I_i)` next to `W(x_i)`.

Or just consider changes of variable, one generally doesn't distinguish the electric field `E` from cartesian, to axisymmetric, to spherical to whatever other coordinate system you dream up. Instead, the presence of the chosen coordinate symbols denotes the coordinate system in use and you don't need to distinguish the field from its functional representation. In order to understand `\partial_2 E` you would need to understand what coordinates I am working with while `\partial E / \partial y` is a bit more self explanatory in classical electrodynamics. Thermodynamics picks up confusion because of the constant changes in variable when the variables aren't coordinates.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#29
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What exactly does "dy/y = dx" mean? As I understand, dy/y = dx means that the derivative of 1/y with respect to y equals to the derivative of 1 with respect to x.

The derivative of 1 with respect to x is zero, since the derivative of any constant function is zero. So you must be saying that the derivative of 1/f(x) with respect to x is zero for any f(x), where f is a differentiable function, with non-vanishing derivative near x (for it to be defined in the first place). That doesn't make any sense. Please don't respond to this. It's getting absurd.

I see my mistake now, sorry for being stupidly blind.

Re: On Leibniz Notation

#30
post #5

It's probably because I'm an ignorant idiot, particularly when it comes to calculus, but this read like a revelation: "the concept of a function shouldn't depend on what your favourite letter is!" Very helpful answer, thanks for posting.

> the concept of a function shouldn't depend on what your favourite letter is

On the other hand, you can also argue that the concept of a function shouldn't depend on your favourite ordering of its variables. Thus, if you have a potential that oscillates in time, such as:

    V = (1 + sin(t))/sqrt(x^2+y^2)
You may want to take derivatives with respect to each variable, such as dV/dt, dV/dx and so on. Their meaning is clear. What does D_2(V) mean, though? It does depend on your favourite ordering of the letters!

Even if you prefer positional notation for derivatives (à la Spivak), it must be recognized that the naming-based notation has its merits, and sometimes is clearer.

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