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Flattr is closing down (2023)

flattr.com

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Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#231

Post by chriswarbo »

colesantiago wrote: post #10

This is very unfortunate and surprising, goes to show that even after 14 years Flattr didn't find any market. I was hoping for bitcoin and crypto to show low usage after around 15 years of no legitimate use cases other than speculation, ransomware and other scammy things, but Flattr's shutdown was a surprise. Flattr billed itself as the RSS of donations to really get rid of those ugly PayPal buttons on blogs, website…

I really liked Flattr, and used it for a while. The big problem was getting money in and out.

Their idea of accumulating microtransactions ("Flattrs") internally for a month and dividing up a fixed amount was a really nice idea: both to reduce payment processor fees, and to remove any anxiety about clicking on a Flattr button (the same amount was spent per month, regardless of how many things were clicked, so go ahead).

However, those monthly payments were also internal: transferred between from one user's "account balance" to another, and those balances had to be topped up manually via a rather laborious bank transfer (supposedly to keep fees down). I think there was an assumption that money would be moving around a lot inside the platform, e.g. blogger A gets Flattred for their post, and they Flattr developer B's application, whilst B Flattrs musician C's song, etc. I think reality had more of a creator/consumer dynamic, which made it more important to smoothly get money into the platform.

I think they would have fared better by allowing users to be automatically charged each month (like Patreon, etc. who came later). The "account balance" idea could be simplified to withdraw-only, for tracking how much was received (i.e. 0 for almost all users); and perhaps allow that balance to be deducted from the monthly charge. It seems obvious in hindsight, and perhaps they did change to such a model; alas, I think their early buzz was squandered due to this friction.

Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#232

Post by bawolff »

robertlagrant wrote: post #163
bawolff wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes i feel like people make too much of the "parasocial" buzzword, as if its new. Entertainers have been doing the pass the hat thing for hundreds of years. It is not a new phenomenom. Historically, it has generally worked for entertainers, and i guess religion. I don't think there are historical paralells to open source really. Maybe it just doesn't work for that sort of thing.

Entertainers aren't pretending to be your friend, or lover, in exchange for money.

I feel like a lot of entertainment acts have elements of that. Crowd work is an important part of many routines.

Maybe that is not the same as pretending to be your friend but then again that mostly applies only to the more extreme end of streamers.

Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#233

Post by bawolff »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #125
bawolff wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes i feel like people make too much of the "parasocial" buzzword, as if its new. Entertainers have been doing the pass the hat thing for hundreds of years. It is not a new phenomenom. Historically, it has generally worked for entertainers, and i guess religion. I don't think there are historical paralells to open source really. Maybe it just doesn't work for that sort of thing.

Yes but entertainers always remained on stage, they didn't enter your home (as smart phones allow) and talk to you 1 on 1.

Rich people often pay for private performances.

Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#234

Post by throwawayq3423 »

bawolff wrote: post #233
throwawayq3423 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but entertainers always remained on stage, they didn't enter your home (as smart phones allow) and talk to you 1 on 1.

Rich people often pay for private performances.

What does the 1% have to do with anything, i'm talking about entertainment at scale.

Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#235

Post by throwawayq3423 »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #183
throwawayq3423 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but entertainers always remained on stage, they didn't enter your home (as smart phones allow) and talk to you 1 on 1.

Personally, when I watch a big stream, the screen being in my house doesn't make it feel any less like the entertainer is on stage. And when there's 15 people watching, that does enable real conversations.

Entertainment for TV rarely has the same immersion, Tiktoks etc. feel like they are speaking directly to you.

Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#236

Post by throwawayq3423 »

chriswarbo wrote: post #229
throwawayq3423 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Patreon. The real failure was adopting a panhandling model of giving "each time" you consume content. Not only is this high friction, but people don't like doing it. They should have aggressively pushed a subscription model ($2 a month or less) that reoccured so creators actually could have reliable income.

Flattr had subscriptions: if you clicked the Flattr button once, they get part of that month's donation; if you clicked it twice they got added to your recurring list, to get a donation every month.

That sounds too abstract. A subscription model for specific content has proven to work.

Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#237

Post by takinola »

chriswarbo wrote: post #230
takinola wrote: post #172

Micropayments struggle because they add friction to the process of consuming content. Right now, if I see a great blog post, video, whatever, I spend a bit of time taking it in and then move on. With micropayments, I now have to think about how much it is worth to me (is this blog post, comment, sketch worth $0.50? $0.10?). You just turned a brainless moment of enjoyment into a value judgement where I now have to bec…

> With micropayments, I now have to think about how much it is worth to me (is this blog post, comment, sketch worth $0.50? $0.10?). You just turned a brainless moment of enjoyment into a value judgement where I now have to become a critic and try to create some kind of inner framework for assigning value, etc. That was never how Flattr worked though. Flattr was just a button that could be placed on a page (next to "…

That's still a lot of friction. You would be surprised at how little friction is too much when it comes to consumer apps. Today alone, I have probably consumed a dozen or more pieces of content. I don't want to apply more thought than it takes to click a link or hit the play button. With this model, I have to (1) decide my overall monthly donation (2) decide if this content is worth donating to (3) remember to click the donate button. Sure, none of these actions is particularly onerous but it adds up over my day and I don't get any (additional) benefit from doing them.

When I choose to subscribe to a creator, it is because I expect to derive sustained benefit from their work. That long(ish) term expectation of benefit is what motivates me to take the additional effort. I don't have any similar motivation for drive-by content and so I won't make the effort, however small.

Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#238

Post by Dylan16807 »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #235
Dylan16807 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, when I watch a big stream, the screen being in my house doesn't make it feel any less like the entertainer is on stage. And when there's 15 people watching, that does enable real conversations.

Entertainment for TV rarely has the same immersion, Tiktoks etc. feel like they are speaking directly to you.

They do? I don't feel that way when I watch tiktoks.

Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#239

Post by bawolff »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #234
bawolff wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people often pay for private performances.

What does the 1% have to do with anything, i'm talking about entertainment at scale.

What percent of people do you think form parasocial bonds with social media personalities? Its probably less than 1% of the population (albeit not neccesarily the rich 1%)

Re: Flattr is closing down (2023)

#240

Post by chriswarbo »

takinola wrote: post #237
chriswarbo wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With micropayments, I now have to think about how much it is worth to me (is this blog post, comment, sketch worth $0.50? $0.10?). You just turned a brainless moment of enjoyment into a value judgement where I now have to become a critic and try to create some kind of inner framework for assigning value, etc. That was never how Flattr worked though. Flattr was just a button that could be placed on a page (next to "…

That's still a lot of friction. You would be surprised at how little friction is too much when it comes to consumer apps. Today alone, I have probably consumed a dozen or more pieces of content. I don't want to apply more thought than it takes to click a link or hit the play button. With this model, I have to (1) decide my overall monthly donation (2) decide if this content is worth donating to (3) remember to click…

> With this model, I have to (1) decide my overall monthly donation (2) decide if this content is worth donating to (3) remember to click the donate button. Sure, none of these actions is particularly onerous but it adds up over my day and I don't get any (additional) benefit from doing them.

I'm confused when you say "it adds up over my day", since (1) is a one-time action you take when signing up to Flattr (e.g. I chose to donate £10 per month). I also wouldn't distinguish between (2) and (3): clicking the button is choosing to donate.

> When I choose to subscribe to a creator, it is because I expect to derive sustained benefit from their work. That long(ish) term expectation of benefit is what motivates me to take the additional effort.

Yet you could subscribe to a creator with Flattr for less effort (literally just click any of their Flattr buttons twice within a month; no need to "choose an amount" or anything). I'm very confused about how you think Flattr worked...

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