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Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#111

Post by hermitcrab »

dang wrote: post #95

I've attempted to compile the HN threads on this. Can anybody find other significant ones? (It's interesting that there was one submission, with one comment, in 2012, and seemingly nothing for the next 7 years...) Fujitsu CEO Deposition – Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39059302 - Jan 2024 (1 comment) Fixing Horizon bugs would have been too costly, Post Office inquiry told - http…

Private Eye have been covering it continuously since Computer Weekly broke the original story.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#112

Post by deepsun »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #91
rayiner wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty impressive, right? I don’t think if you took random New Yorkers and dumped them into that same situation they would have achieved the same outcomes.

you don't think other groups would have fought for survival?

Other groups would adapt to their local community, blend in, so there would be no need to move out and found countries.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#113

Post by magospietato »

tomcar288 wrote: post #51

travesty of justice doesn't begin to describe it. there must be something else wrong besides just the software? how could the justice department just blindly trust the software accounting without any other evidence.

You are misunderstanding how much of a travesty this is.

No government organisation (typically the Crown Prosecution Service in England and Wales) was involved in bringing these prosecutions.

The Post Office itself was legislatively empowered to bring private prosecutions of their employees to the state courts of England.

The whole thing is insane.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#114

Post by labster »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #53
CoastalCoder wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

>So you really should expect true Christians, on average, to gradually become better people. Only if I accept their beliefs as accurate.

You shouldn’t have to accept the beliefs, just the virtues, if it’s a religion with a stated goal of making people virtuous (excluding some polytheistic faiths, for instance).

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#115

Post by alt227 »

jocoda wrote: post #57

There is no way to make good the harm inflicted, and I'm skeptical that anyone except, maybe the innocent, are going to be punished. The central villain of this shit show is the Post Office. The history of the project shows that - from initial procurement onwards. Poorly implemented by ICL, a UK company, taken over by Fujitsu as some sort of favour to the UK government. The developers are guilty but this is just anot…

>How do you make something like this right?

The UK government reckon it takes about £600,000 each

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66843548

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#116

Post by londons_explore »

dataangel wrote: post #107
puzzledobserver wrote: post #77

The Wikipedia article on Paula Vennells tells me that the Post Office prosecuted 700 subpostmasters between 1999 and 2015 [0]. That works out to about one prosecution every 8 days. I do not know the baseline rate at which postmasters commit fraud or are prosecuted, but isn't one prosecution every 8 days an awfully high number? Shouldn't the Post Office have conducted some sort of internal investigation as soon as the…

I think the more important variable is how many subpostmasters there are. If there are millions then 700 is impressive.

As of 2023, there were 6727 subpostmasters.

So about 10% committed fraud.

Seems a little high - but I could believe it if the subpostmasters are the local "boss", handling cash, and are supposed to pay 'the blokes in London' who they never meet.

Also, most subpostmasters had many employees - and I believe if any one of their employees was commiting fraud/stealing money, then it was the sub postmaster responsible - so that 10% number might actually only be 1% if every branch had 10 people involved in the running of it.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#117

Post by vlovich123 »

dataangel wrote: post #107
puzzledobserver wrote: post #77

The Wikipedia article on Paula Vennells tells me that the Post Office prosecuted 700 subpostmasters between 1999 and 2015 [0]. That works out to about one prosecution every 8 days. I do not know the baseline rate at which postmasters commit fraud or are prosecuted, but isn't one prosecution every 8 days an awfully high number? Shouldn't the Post Office have conducted some sort of internal investigation as soon as the…

I think the more important variable is how many subpostmasters there are. If there are millions then 700 is impressive.

Couldn’t find the exact number, but anywhere from 9k-12k according to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Office_Limited#Services

That’s ~8.5% of their subpostmasters that were arrested (the actual number according to Wikipedia is 900 not 700). That seems really high to me.

Also I think you meant to say that 700 out of millions would be unimpressive instead of impressive right?

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#118

Post by londons_explore »

bjornsing wrote: post #76

In England and Wales perverting the course of justice carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. IMHO this would be appropriate for the lawyers who rewrote those witness statements.

witness statements are frequently collaboratively written/edited and then signed by the witness...

I don't think collaboration or editing is in itself a crime - the crime is to sign a statement which you know to be untrue or deceiving.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#119

Post by dang »

hermitcrab wrote: post #111
dang wrote: post #95

I've attempted to compile the HN threads on this. Can anybody find other significant ones? (It's interesting that there was one submission, with one comment, in 2012, and seemingly nothing for the next 7 years...) Fujitsu CEO Deposition – Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39059302 - Jan 2024 (1 comment) Fixing Horizon bugs would have been too costly, Post Office inquiry told - http…

Private Eye have been covering it continuously since Computer Weekly broke the original story.

Yes, that's mentioned in a number of the HN threads listed above.

If anyone finds an interesting thread I missed, please reply so I can add it!

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#120

Post by was_a_dev »

londons_explore wrote: post #116
dataangel wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more important variable is how many subpostmasters there are. If there are millions then 700 is impressive.

As of 2023, there were 6727 subpostmasters. So about 10% committed fraud. Seems a little high - but I could believe it if the subpostmasters are the local "boss", handling cash, and are supposed to pay 'the blokes in London' who they never meet. Also, most subpostmasters had many employees - and I believe if any one of their employees was commiting fraud/stealing money, then it was the sub postmaster responsible - so…

It was the arrogance that they thought that these subpostmasters had been doing this for years, and just been caught out by their new computer system.

The contempt for their staff is insane

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