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Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#101

Post by hermitcrab »

metabagel wrote: post #96
worik wrote: post #68

"Patterson also told Parliament members that Fujitsu has "a moral obligation" to contribute to the compensation for victims." How often do you hear a suit talk of their "moral obligation"? That really struck me. So true So often we (computer programmers) get to walk away free and clear from the cluster fucks that arrive from our mistakes

Clearly, there must have been systemic issues at Fujitsu which allowed the accounting software to fail so spectacularly.

Horizons was based on a failed benefits system and it was widely known that the quality of the software team was not good. IIRC it didn't even use ACID transactions, so glitches and power outages could cause big problems. What sort of company would put their Z team on a multi-billion pound contract?

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#102

Post by hermitcrab »

I think it was more than 'bugs'. The whole architectural design was inadequate. See Computerphile video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBJm9ZYqL10

(C++ programmer, but not an expert of distributed systems - would be interested to hear from someone that is)

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#103

Post by hermitcrab »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

>What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon

Because Priests have never done anything bad before?

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#104

Post by droopyEyelids »

neilv wrote: post #97
orbisvicis wrote: post #33

"I [Paul Patterson, co-CEO of Fujitsu's European division] am surprised that that detail was not included in the witness statements given by Fujitsu staff to the Post Office and I have seen some evidence of editing witness statements by others" How does this scandal keep getting worse and worse when the only thing to cover up is a contract for some poorly written software? At this point I'm starting to suspect some u…

"The coverup is worse than the crime" is a terrible effect. But it can happen from: * smaller-fry butt-covering (e.g., lower-level function trying to cover their own butt, putting larger org at risk of much higher cost to the org); * arrogance (e.g., individual/org thinks they are in the right and justified in escalating countermeasures); * bully-like confidence (e.g., individual/org thinks they are powerful enough t…

This is actually how the Manson family murders started!

They first injured Gary Hinman trying to get money from him- before the Tate murders. While he was injured they spent days first injuring him, and then debating how to keep him from going to the police for two days before he died.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#105

Post by nabla9 »

tomcar288 wrote: post #51

travesty of justice doesn't begin to describe it. there must be something else wrong besides just the software? how could the justice department just blindly trust the software accounting without any other evidence.

Did you read the article? It was not justice department (aka Crown Prosecutor) prosecuting those people.

In UK private prosecution for crimes is possible. Probably a major reason for this kind of bullshit goes on.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#107

Post by dataangel »

puzzledobserver wrote: post #77

The Wikipedia article on Paula Vennells tells me that the Post Office prosecuted 700 subpostmasters between 1999 and 2015 [0]. That works out to about one prosecution every 8 days. I do not know the baseline rate at which postmasters commit fraud or are prosecuted, but isn't one prosecution every 8 days an awfully high number? Shouldn't the Post Office have conducted some sort of internal investigation as soon as the…

I think the more important variable is how many subpostmasters there are. If there are millions then 700 is impressive.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#108

Post by tsol »

yieldcrv wrote: post #47

The real question is who is this happening to now? Its like you go to a prison and everyone says "I'm innocent" and the officer sarcastically dismisses them saying "you and everyone else", the irony being..... that's plausible?

This is kind of the idea behind the innocence project. I'm not sure if they have a certain focus but they work on cases of people falsely accused.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#109

Post by dumbfounder »

worik wrote: post #69
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

> Bugs are inevitable. Yes But accounting software that gets totals wrong is not inevitable Entirely avoidable

And can't the numbers be, I dunno, audited?!!?!!? WTF. Like, did all these numbers just get spit out to a jury and then these people were prosecuted? How in the hell?????

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#110

Post by neilv »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #104
neilv wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The coverup is worse than the crime" is a terrible effect. But it can happen from: * smaller-fry butt-covering (e.g., lower-level function trying to cover their own butt, putting larger org at risk of much higher cost to the org); * arrogance (e.g., individual/org thinks they are in the right and justified in escalating countermeasures); * bully-like confidence (e.g., individual/org thinks they are powerful enough t…

This is actually how the Manson family murders started! They first injured Gary Hinman trying to get money from him- before the Tate murders. While he was injured they spent days first injuring him, and then debating how to keep him from going to the police for two days before he died.

Is there a chart of the rationality over time?
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