Earlier quoted context omitted.
I assume you're referring to copyright. It could be argued copyright is a tragedy of the commons, the individual benefits at the expense of everyone else. Obviously it is intended that the wider impact of incentivising innovation will be beneficial to everyone, but that is not a sure thing, it is a compromise, a balancing act and that applies to AI too. The Luddites did lose their jobs after all.
Listening to people bash the luddites without understanding the actual history of the luddites is getting exhausting.
Is A.I. The Death of I.P.?
301–309 of 309 posts
Re: Is A.I. The Death of I.P.?
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
You equivocated them.
I did not. You and GP are missing the point. I'm trying to make you understand how much of art is stealing from others, that you're incorrect about how art works at a basic level. Art is mostly drawing upon the commons and your understanding of artist rights is based on a fiction created by corporations and wealthy rent seekers seeking to retain power in our economic system.
You might think I'm being rude or overly hostile to you, but frankly I think you deserve it. Your views are atrocious.
Re: Is A.I. The Death of I.P.?
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you not believe that societal constructs are real? What makes (fiat) money a real resource and copyright an imaginary one? What about this logic: Debt is not a real thing. It's a fiction. Subverting contract law is not like subverting the laws of physics. Simply don't pay your bills! What happens when you subvert contract law is some guys with guns, in either an overt way or a subtle one, force a trade of your ima…
I do not believe any of these social constructs are real. Map vs territory. The map: debt. The territory: guys who come to your house and kick you out for not paying your debt.
And if you don't believe social constructs to be real, then I am confused as to why in your original comment "money" is given as something which is real. I think one could reasonably say that all social constructs are "imaginary" (whether that is useful is another question, but I would say it is not), but I find it more difficult once you engage in line-drawing within social constructs, especially so when you don't specifically articulate a boundary.
Re: Is A.I. The Death of I.P.?
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If it's theft, then your brain belongs to Disney and you need to start forking over your salary. Your connectome is littered with their platitudes. I think it's quite telling that sooner or later, every discussion about "AI" and copyright ends up equating people to statistical models controlled by predatory megacorporations. My connectome, in the eyes of the law, has a special legal status which is not shared by in…
You're invoking sorcery. Go check out open source AI. AnimateDiff, RVC, and the whole wealth of LLM models.
"Open-source AI" is interesting in multiple ways, but not relevant to the legality of the models.
You know the "If ML is IP infringement then your brain is owned by Disney" take is just as sensible (and specious) for pre-ML stuff too, right? You're allowed to memorize the full script of any movie you want, without anyone trying even a little to claim that doing so should reduce your legal status to chattel, but obviously you're not allowed to just rip the subtitles from a DVD and sell it as a book.
Re: Is A.I. The Death of I.P.?
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can buy valerian root tea at multinational grocery store. The problem with supplements isn't that they're disenfranchised, and it's not even that they strictly don't work. It's that the huge businesses that make tons of money off of them have so aggressively resisted regulation based on effectiveness, or even contents, that you can't count on what you're buying not poisoning you, let alone helping. And I'd love to…
>And I'd love to see a natural replacement for insulin that doesn't kill people, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist. No sugar, no alcohol, low carbohydrate diets are the answer to the diabetes epidemic. If you want to regulate something, start with the corporations marketing processed, poisoned garbage to people as "food" and "beverages".
Re: Is A.I. The Death of I.P.?
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, you are right. But. People do abuse the protections, which are too lengthy, makes possible to sell rights, etc. In the end, corporations (ab)uses (buy and sell rights) protections for amassing fortunes much bigger than the original creator ever got. That's not right, not fair, at all. System's broken, need fix, throw it all out and build something new, centered around creators. Give back to creators only, for le…
I can get behind that for sure. I just don't like the blanket "get rid of IP" especially when we are talking about AI companies which already well surpased the legal and ethical limits of it.
At the moment, most creators are starving, while everyone, AI included, are feeding on them - big time. Successful then powerful creators only may dream about making AI pay - to them only.
Maybe it's time for some minimum revenue scheme for all creators, on top of heavy limitations on IP. Maybe AI corps can pay for that?
Re: Is A.I. The Death of I.P.?
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you not believe that societal constructs are real? What makes (fiat) money a real resource and copyright an imaginary one? What about this logic: Debt is not a real thing. It's a fiction. Subverting contract law is not like subverting the laws of physics. Simply don't pay your bills! What happens when you subvert contract law is some guys with guns, in either an overt way or a subtle one, force a trade of your ima…
I do not believe any of these social constructs are real. Map vs territory. The map: debt. The territory: guys who come to your house and kick you out for not paying your debt.
You are redefining the word "real". You know this. Some people get a delight from redefining words and seeing the reaction. It is rather tiresome; it doesn't help constructive debate. What have we accomplished here? Have you convinced anyone?
Feel free to disagree with a particular social norm or law and present your thinking.
If you want to get into epistemology, please do. But we have to find a shared language that makes sense.
Re: Is A.I. The Death of I.P.?
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you're sowing the seeds to undermine your own arguments, because, literally, everything of social utility is a fiction: money, law, "private property", contracts, and so forth. All of them are needed for society to function, but at the same time all of them are convenient fictions for us to build upon.
Sure, you can make a slippery slope argument, but there is something substantially more "fictional" / artificial / unnatural about copyright/IP than currencies and other social constructs you are equivocating with. Storytelling is as old as language itself and might even be older than our particular species, and is basically copyright infringement. The same goes for tool-making, which is thought to be one of the spar…
## "Rhetoric and Reality in Copyright Law" by Stewart E. Sterk
Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law. https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...
> Why give authors an exclusive right to their writings? Copyright rhetoric generally offers two answers. The first is instrumental: copyright provides an incentive for authors to create and disseminate works of social value. By giving authors a monopoly over their works, copyright corrects for the underincentive to create that might result if free riders were permitted to share in the value created by an author's efforts. The second answer is desert: copyright rewards authors, who simply deserve recompense for their contributions whether or not recompense would induce them to engage in creative activity.
> The rhetoric evokes sympathetic images of the author at work. The instrumental justification for copyright paints a picture of an author struggling to avoid abandoning his calling in order to feed his family. By contrast, the desert justification conjures up a genius irrevocably committed to his work, resigned - or oblivious - to living conditions not commensurate with his social contributions. The two images have a common thread: extending the scope of copyright protection relieves the author's plight.
> Indeed, the same rhetoric· - emphasizing both incentives and desert - consistently has been invoked to justify two centuries of copyright expansion. Unfortunately, however, the rhetoric captures only a small slice of contemporary copyright reality. Although some copyright protection indeed may be necessary to induce creative activity, copyright doctrine now extends well beyond the contours of the instrumental justification. ...
## "Copyright Nonconsequentialism" by David McGowan
Missouri Law Review. https://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art...
> This Article explores the foundations of copyright law. It tries to explain why those who debate copyright often seem to talk past each other. I contend the problem is that copyright scholars pay too much attention to instrumental arguments, which are often indeterminate, and too little to the first principles that affect how one approaches copyright law.
> Most arguments about copyright law use instrumental language to make consequentialist arguments. It is common for scholars to contend one or another rule will advance or impede innovation, the efficient allocation and production of expression, personal autonomy, consumer welfare, the "robustness" of public debate, and so on.' Most of these instrumental arguments, though not quite all of them, reduce to propositions that cannot be tested or rejected empirically. Such propositions therefore cannot explain existing doctrine or the positions taken in debate.
> These positions vary widely. Consumer advocates favor broad fair use rights and narrow liability standards for contributory infiringement; producer advocates favor the reverse.' Most of the arguments for both consumers and producers prove too much. It is easy to say that the right to exclude is needed to provide incentives for authors. It is hard to show that any particular rules provide optimal incentives. It is easy to point to deviations from the model of perfect competition. It is hard to show why these deviations imply particular rules.
Re: Is A.I. The Death of I.P.?
#309Copyright is not a real thing. It's a fiction. Subverting copyright law is not like subverting the laws of physics. What happens when you subvert copyright law is some guys with guns, in either an overt way or a subtle one, force a trade of your imaginary resource (copyright) for the real resource (money), through licensing or fines. Debate about what AI means for copyright is really a debate about what we choose to…
Do you not believe that societal constructs are real? What makes (fiat) money a real resource and copyright an imaginary one? What about this logic: Debt is not a real thing. It's a fiction. Subverting contract law is not like subverting the laws of physics. Simply don't pay your bills! What happens when you subvert contract law is some guys with guns, in either an overt way or a subtle one, force a trade of your ima…