Live data from Hacker News

On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

catandgirl.com

941–950 of 957 posts

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#941
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If you think OpenAI is less valuable because it can't use copyrighted content, then it should give some of that value back to the content. But we are allowed to use copyrighted content. We are not allowed to copy copyrighted content. We are allowed to view and consume it, to be influenced by it, and under many circumstances even outright copy it. If one doesn't want anyone to see/consume or be influenced by one's…

Because we are humans and our capability of abusing those rights is limited. The scale and speed at which LLMs can abuse copyrighted work to threaten the livelihoods of the authors of those works is reason enough to consider it unethical.

Writing good text with LLM is actually slow and takes a lot of fixing.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#942
post #846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market does not choose the superior product. It might choose the least common denominator, the cheapest product, the product that got on the market the earliest, or the one with the richest backers, but not "the superior product".

The "superior" product is subjective. The objectively superior product is the one that people pay for. They are exchanging labor/capital for the item/content. I could make the best movie ever conceived, the movie to end all movies. If nobody watches it, it has 0 value.

> The objectively superior product is the one that people pay for. They are exchanging labor/capital for the item/content.

No, that assumes perfect discovery of options. The product people see first is often chosen.

> I could make the best movie ever conceived, the movie to end all movies. If nobody watches it, it has 0 value.

Things only have intrinsic value if validated by others? That's just not true.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#943
post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're trying to claim ownership. It sounded like you were suggesting that the only recourse for OpenAI would be to fund a UBI program as a form of payment instead of directly paying the people who own the IP it ingested?

Yes, I'm saying that because there's (currently) no way to even tell how much the model was improved by my comments on HN vs. an equal number of tokens that came from e.g. nytimes.com; furthermore, to the extent that it is even capable of causing economic losses to IP holders, I think this necessarily requires the model to be actually good and not just a bad mimic[0] or prone to whimsy[1] and that this economic damag…

So because it's "difficult" for ChatGPT to pay people for what it ingested we need to change our entire economic model to accommodate their inability (I'd argue it's the lack of will) to solve this problem?

Imagine a scenario where your employer decides that it's going to go plant trees to save the environment, a laudable goal, in lieu of your paycheck. Their excuse would be "it's too difficult to process payroll and easier to plant trees. Since planting trees is good for the environment by the transitive property it's good for the employee. Thus, they should be happy."

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#944
post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So does a human brain. A major difference between a human training himself by looking at art, and a computer doing it, is that the human ends up working for himself, the computer is owned by some billionaire. One enhances the creative potential of humanity as a whole, the other consolidates it in the hands of the already-powerful. Another major difference is that a human can't use that knowledge to mass-produce tha…

No, the beneficiaries of generative AI are the users because they set the prompt and use the outputs. Providers make cents per million tokens. It is a people empowerment technology.

Right, and sharecroppers are the empowered ones in the relationship with their landlords.

Utterly ridiculous.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#945
post #895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sincerely think you (in the thought experiment) sounds like an incredible hero. Libraries are awesome and great for reducing inequality, using ads to support that cause and also funneling cash to UBI initiatives? Even better

UBI is great! But taking away artists' livelihoods and justifying it with an uncertain promise of UBI years or (far more likely) decades in the future is (hypothetically) a particularly malignant example of putting the cart before the horse. My observation of the vast majority of people who think intellectual property law is moral anathema to some idealized notion of "freedom" is that they either know nothing about m…

> Or, if you think UBI fixes everything, go ahead and start sending out checks (with a robust guarantee that they will keep coming). I'm sure that will change the tenor of the conversation.

So far as I can tell, the capacity to do that is called "communism". Specifically "fully automated luxury communism". Why? Because governments are the only entities capable of making such a robust guarantee, and they can only do it without hyperinflation if they own the means of production… which in this case would be the AI.

Now, convincing a government to take an AI into public ownership and use its economic productivity to fund a UBI, that's going to be hard work, and will need evidence to show which of the many options within this very ill-defined and barely researched topic will work vs. which are mere wishful thinking.

This research is what's currently being funded by the actual entity you're most visibly upset with (OpenAI).

And that research may well also determine the answer is "no", at which point we have to come up with something else.

Saying "if you want that why don't you fund it yourself?" was a retort against government funded pensions back in the Victorian era, which I mention because pensions are an age-gated UBI[0]. It's never sufficient to find volunteers for stuff of this scale in a democracy, because "sufficient" is on the same scale as becoming the government and changing the laws.

[0] thus not literally universal, but that's always going to be a sticking point — one open question is if "UBI" should apply to just "all adults" or be the same rate also for minors

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#946
post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm saying that because there's (currently) no way to even tell how much the model was improved by my comments on HN vs. an equal number of tokens that came from e.g. nytimes.com; furthermore, to the extent that it is even capable of causing economic losses to IP holders, I think this necessarily requires the model to be actually good and not just a bad mimic[0] or prone to whimsy[1] and that this economic damag…

So because it's "difficult" for ChatGPT to pay people for what it ingested we need to change our entire economic model to accommodate their inability (I'd argue it's the lack of will) to solve this problem? Imagine a scenario where your employer decides that it's going to go plant trees to save the environment, a laudable goal, in lieu of your paycheck. Their excuse would be "it's too difficult to process payroll and…

> So because it's "difficult" for ChatGPT to pay people for what it ingested we need to change our entire economic model to accommodate their inability (I'd argue it's the lack of will) to solve this problem?

It's not merely "difficult", so far as I know the only way even in theory, and I am about to explain why this is sufficiently hard as to be impossible in practice even though it may not sound like it before you get to that explanation, is to try retraining the model from scratch with certain subsets removed.

Unfortunately, while can do this for any single source, you absolutely cannot owing to the computational limits of the universe do this for all 2^(2*10^9)) permutations of people on the internet who produced some training data (even a mere 2^(765.5) is too large to *count* within the theoretical computational limits of the universe); and those permutations are necessary because inside the model all these sources interact with each other, so you also can't (accurately) just assume that whatever Alice's contribution was, was independent of whatever Bob's contribution was — as a toy model, pretend Alice explained algebra and Bob explained geometry, there's a lot you can do with either one, but even more you can do with both.

As for "changing our entire economic model": if/when AI is good enough to make everyone permanently unemployable, what else would you suggest?

Even in the lead-in to that if/when conditional, I think we need something like UBI when there's an AI that's "only" making everyone of IQ≤85 permanently unemployable; similar economic changes, but with different potential solutions, are also needed for "only" truck drivers (as a category, I'm not making an IQ claim about them), or "only" the traditional handloom weavers[0], as in all cases the alternative is they choose between rioting and starving.

And in case you're wondering, I think the image generators may put artists in the second group (a specific role in society that is quite understandably upset about being suddenly automated out of a perfectly respectable career), while LLMs look like they might be the former (even if the question of exactly what this whole "IQ" thing means anyway is surprisingly difficult to answer).

> Imagine a scenario where your employer decides that it's going to go plant trees to save the environment, a laudable goal, in lieu of your paycheck. Their excuse would be "it's too difficult to process payroll and easier to plant trees. Since planting trees is good for the environment by the transitive property it's good for the employee. Thus, they should be happy."

Bad example. For one, as a software developer my job is to automate myself into redundancy. For another, I am saying that *all actual harm* from GenAI has to be balanced by someone else making *the same economic output*, which in the environment/trees example would have to be "my employer plants 2,400 trees per minute to make up for not paying anyone" (according to Wikipedia)… or possibly "my employer cut down literally all the trees on the planet and has decided to make up for this by planting replacements, which means they no longer have any money to pay anyone", which would leave me very confused about my financial status but I'd probably ask the government to step in to make sure they didn't go under before finishing putting the trees back?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-loom_riots

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#947
post #914

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the issue here, is you are giving AIs agency. AIs are not magic. They are tools. They are not alive, they do not have agency. They do not do things by themselves. Humans do things, some humans use AI to do those things. Agency always rests with a combination of the tool's creator and operator, never the tool itself. Is there really a difference between a human flooding the market using AI and a human floo…

> Is there really a difference between a human flooding the market using AI and a human flooding the market using a printing press? Yes. A printing press only floods the market with copies. An AI floods the market with new derivative works. A human producing a single creative work and then flooding the market with copies leaves lots of room for other humans to produce their own novel work. An AI flooding the market w…

"AI flooding the market with new derivative works" sounds nice if you are the consumer.

Now that we can finally have lots of amazing things almost for free, should we create artificial scarcity to protect the existing business models?

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#948

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but these arguments by analogy are patently ridiculous. We are not talking about the eons old human practice of creative artistic endeavor, which yes, is clearly derivative in some fashion, but which we have well established practices around. We are discussing a new phenomenon of mass replication or derivation by machine at a scale impossible for a single individual to achieve by manual effort. Further, artist…

So your argument is predicated on the scale of inspired work being the problem? > They are not human beings and they do not participate in the social systems of human beings the way human beings do I don't think this adds anything to the argument besides you using this as a reason analogies with humans can't be used to compare the specific concept of inspired works? I don't think this holds up. Algorithms participati…

[dead]

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#949

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My point is that there’s no scientific way to demonstrate that one has made a choice "I'm sorry, your honor, there is no scientific way to demonstrate that I have made a choice to shoot the victim dead. Therefore, I am not guilty!" The way that an AI gets a data set to be trained on is via a choice made by humans . You can't reason your way out of the fact that a choice is made, that it's not made by the AI, and tha…

I mean the interesting bit of this conversation is about intelligence not laws. If you want to debate that talk to someone else I guess.

The conversation is about artists being ripped off by people who train AI models on their work without consent (and profit off of that).

But sure, let's pretend the conversation is about intelligence of an algorithm that has no agency and no say in the matter.

Being obtuse on purpose is fun!

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#950
post #121

> But I can't even get cartoons to most people for free now, without doing unpaid work for the profit-making companies who own the most use channels of communication This is the sticking point for me. OpenAI isn't a profit-making company, but it's certainly a valuable company. A valuable company that is built from the work of content others created without transferring any value back to them. Regardless of legalities…

> Regardless of legalities, that's wrong to me. I see it differently. To me, if you post your work online as an artist, it's really there for everyone to view and be inspired by. As long as nobody copies it verbatim, don't think you've been hurt by any other usage. If another artist views it, and is inspired by it... so be it. If an AI views it, and is inspired by it, again, no harm done.

> nobody copies it verbatim

This is not really how copyright works.

> an AI views it, and is inspired by it,

This is a misleading anthropomorphization of how AI works.

Post reply on HN