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How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

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Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ireland can't lower it's taxes to the point of unprofitability, so it will lower it's taxes until revenues raised == cost of services + small margin. That's a good thing. Don't complain that others provide the same service at lower cost, try to innovate and outcompete them.

Well Bush II lowered taxes to the point of unprofitability (I assume you are speaking from a national governmental view). Governments engage in deficit spending and some foolishly lowers taxes at the behest of its monied interests. You appear to assign to the government of Ireland some sort of rationality and ignore things like regulatory capture and corruption. Your belief that a government will only lower until "re…

You are referring to all government services and all revenue collected. I'm referring solely to services provided to corporations and revenue collected from corporations.

I fully agree that the losses from the War on Iraqis/SS/medicare/etc don't outweigh the profits made by taxing Apple/etc and providing them with a few cheap services (corporate registration, enforcement of contracts, etc). That's a separate issue.

Regulatory competition helps - if the profitable people/businesses flee from corruption/inefficiency, then those wasteful programs will eventually run out of money.

The existence of corruption and regulatory capture is all the more reason to have regulatory competition. If California is captured by corrupt special interests (e.g., prison guard unions), corporations can purchase corporate registration and contract enforcement from states which offer a better value.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#92
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that won't work if some very small country lowers it's tax to 1%. The US can't compete with that.

Why not? (Honest question.) We have states that have no personal income tax. Not surprisingly, these states are doing fine because they raise revenue other ways.

Income tax only accounts for some of the taxes a state can take in. Property and sales tax are also forms states use to collect income, and they happen to be regressive in most cases.

If you look at the CFED chart [2], those nine states [1] with no income tax make up the top 9 slots where the bottom 20% pay many times more in taxes than the top 1% (as a percentage of income), from 3.8 times (Tennessee) to a whopping 6.7 times (Washington).

[1] http://www.irs.gov/efile/article/0,,id=130684,00.html

[2] http://scorecard.assetsandopportunity.org/2012/measure/tax-b...

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#93
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is an issue of morality. I could choose to avoid paying taxes in the society that I'm a part of. It would be in my economic interest to do so. But it is morally wrong because it is that same society that enables me to make my money in the first place. Simple, right?

I'm not sure it's that simple. I live in the US. The vast majority of the US Federal budget goes to the military, income redistribution (welfare) and insurance programs (social security, medicare). I do not believe most of those expenditures enable me to make money, and I think a significant segment is actively harmful. I also feel that I don't have a meaningful say in how that money is used because the political sys…

Exactly.. lets first talk about the morality and ethics behind the govt. spending MY hard-earned dollars to go bomb brown people in the middle of the desert for 20 STRAIGHT YEARS.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#94
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great. If apple makes $1b, if the bulk of the money is held by a foreign SUBSIDIARY, my stock will go up, and I will pay capital gains. If they give it to me as a dividend, I will pay taxes on that. If they reinvest it in the company and the investment makes money, my stock will go up even more. And if they reinvest it in the company and squander it all, no taxes will be collected on the income, but they won't…

Wall Street does care about there the money is. That is why tech companies have spent huge sums lobbying for a repatriation amnesty.

Tech companies want repatriation amnesty so they can invest the money in the US. I have no idea why we want to prevent them from doing this.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#95
post #88

Similarly IKEA pays zero tax by channeling all it's profits through a very complicated setup to an Irish non-profit. GE not only pays zero tax, but also manages to extract tax refunds from the US government. The big question if an evasive tax setup makes sense at lower profit levels, or if the costs of setting up and maintaining it are prohibitive. Does anyone know?

The big question more precisely, is at what profit threshold dollar amount does it start making sense to do it

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#96
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is an issue of morality. I could choose to avoid paying taxes in the society that I'm a part of. It would be in my economic interest to do so. But it is morally wrong because it is that same society that enables me to make my money in the first place. Simple, right?

I'm not sure it's that simple. I live in the US. The vast majority of the US Federal budget goes to the military, income redistribution (welfare) and insurance programs (social security, medicare). I do not believe most of those expenditures enable me to make money, and I think a significant segment is actively harmful. I also feel that I don't have a meaningful say in how that money is used because the political sys…

I'm not saying I agree with all of it in practice, but there's a strong argument against your thoughts here, especially in principle.

The military keeps foreigners from invading/suicide bombing and thus creates stability which lets you make money. Social safety nets including welfare, social security, etc, create the same sort of stability since there's less of a likelihood a starving person or angry elderly woman will rob you, etc, etc.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#97
"As of September 24, 2011 and September 25, 2010, $54.3 billion and $30.8 billion, respectively, of the Company’s cash, cash equivalents and marketable securities were held by foreign subsidiaries and are generally based in U.S. dollar-denominated holdings. Amounts held by foreign subsidiaries are generally subject to U.S. income taxation on repatriation to the U.S."

http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/AAPL/1826229879x0xS11...

These tactics don't exempt corporations from US federal taxation, they just serve to delay when the taxes are payable. Apple owes US federal income taxes on the earnings of its foreign subsidiaries that is payable upon repatriation of the cash to the US. Accordingly, Apple and has booked an $8.9 billion liability for the taxes it owes on the unremitted earnings of foreign subsidiaries. Unless Congress moves forward with a "repatriation holiday," that liability will remain until Apple brings back the cash to the US to fund domestic investment or to return to shareholders and pays the US taxes it owes.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#98
post #66

The implied but never fully-articulated point of this article is that high-tax domiciles resent it when rational actors having a choice in the matter will routinely structure their business affairs to incur tax to the maximum extent possible in low-tax as opposed to high-tax domiciles. The issue becomes almost formulaic. Given (1) rational actors, (2) freedom to choose and to structure business affairs using a multip…

There's also the very real and reasonable question of where capital might be used more efficiently. Having seen first-hand how government agencies make spending decisions it is my opinion that a huge percentage of tax dollars is wasted. Private industry is almost always far more efficient in allocating resources out of necessity. I have seen cases where government agencies pay double --or more-- what a private entity…

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#99
post #66

The implied but never fully-articulated point of this article is that high-tax domiciles resent it when rational actors having a choice in the matter will routinely structure their business affairs to incur tax to the maximum extent possible in low-tax as opposed to high-tax domiciles. The issue becomes almost formulaic. Given (1) rational actors, (2) freedom to choose and to structure business affairs using a multip…

Your first sentence of your last paragraph shows one of the problems with globalization. We have seen in the U.S. municipalities competing with each other to see who can give the most subsidies to large corporations. The effects have not been so desirable. Now we are seeing this played out on a grand, global scale. It's potentially a race to the bottom. I think globalization without a proper international regulating…

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#100
post #83
post #66

The implied but never fully-articulated point of this article is that high-tax domiciles resent it when rational actors having a choice in the matter will routinely structure their business affairs to incur tax to the maximum extent possible in low-tax as opposed to high-tax domiciles. The issue becomes almost formulaic. Given (1) rational actors, (2) freedom to choose and to structure business affairs using a multip…

"The implied but never fully-articulated point of this article is that high-tax domiciles resent it when rational actors having a choice in the matter will routinely structure their business affairs to incur tax to the maximum extent possible in low-tax as opposed to high-tax domiciles." No, that's the conclusion you might draw if you choose to read the article through an extremely narrow filter where you start from…

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html
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