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How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

nytimes.com

41–50 of 215 posts

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#41
This kind of thing (on a smaller scale, admittedly) is what I do in my day job.

In the same way we hear "The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it" we can say "Money interprets taxation as damage and routes around it."

Someone imposing censorship upon the internet might have all of the morality and justification in the world behind his/her argument. Irrelevant. So too with taxation. You can talk about moral imperatives all you want -- one should support the country you're in by paying taxes. Irrelevant.

You make tangible objects float in mid-air by altering the law of gravity, or by using magnificent quantities of effort (e.g., fly tons of metal through the sky by burning vast quantities of fuel).

You (as a government) make money change course and come to rest elsewhere by altering the law of taxation or by using magnificent quantities of rhetoric (look for "should" and "ought" and "them" in sentences). Or you use magnificent quantities of enforcement (tax audits, put people in jail, etc. I live in this universe, too.)

Ultimately, the point by @yummyfajitas is correct. Countries have sovereignty and can do as they damn well please.

The U.S. has the bullying power of the U.S. dollar and a lot of guns to convince other countries to behave in ways that the U.S. wants them to behave. This will work until it doesn't work anymore.

The way this will cease working for the U.S. government is that the bullying will become unacceptable for other governments. They will rightly see this as ceding national sovereignty to the U.S. government. This will not happen until the U.S. dollar weakens and a plausible reserve currency appears. China's slow moves to relaxing currency controls tells you where the next likely reserve currency will be.

The other way this will cease working is visible in the cited article. Large economic organizations -- like Apple -- are starting to develop their own anti-gravitation fields and can float above tax laws of any particular country.

It's fun to watch. Put your moral imperatives in your pocket for a while and just observe. What is Congress doing, and why? Why, for instance, is a lot of the anti-international tax legislation in Congress coming from Senator Levin (D-Mich)? What are companies doing? After you see something happen, don't ask "Why?" Better to ask, "And then what will happen?"

You might surprise yourself. The unintended consequences are sitting there, in plain sight.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#42
post #18

There really should be some sort of movement to shame apple (and hopefully other California companies) for doing this. They've benefitted immensely from the infrastructure we've provided and are doing nothing to invest back into it now that they're on top. At the very least they should help with the rising tuition costs at public schools (UCs, Cal States, etc.)

Shaming them for what? They're simply taking advantage of the confusing and loophole filled tax laws you provided them. Nobody pays more taxes than they absolutely have to. If you don't want people to abuse loopholes, fix the loopholes.

Using loopholes when you know they are loopholes seems pretty immoral to me. You don’t have to agree with me on that, but that would for example be a prime reason for shaming them. Morals are not equal to the law. Immoral things stay immoral even if they are legal. And there is nothing wrong with calling out immoral behavior.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#43
I'd like to see Apple or any company to do as they threaten and move their headquarters. Try asking all of your top talent to move from their nice property values and school districts to some tax haven.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#46
Well I'll just say it as I do not think anyone else has: I find this disgusting and it seems like capitalism gone too far. California is struggling and would benefit from the contributions of the worlds largest contributions that reside within its borders.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#47
post #43

I'd like to see Apple or any company to do as they threaten and move their headquarters. Try asking all of your top talent to move from their nice property values and school districts to some tax haven.

Boeing moved from Seattle to Chicago in 2001 [0]. A major company moving headquarters is not unheard of.

[0] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/22/us/boeing-jolting-seattle-...

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#48
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make any sense at all. Tax avoidance is perfectly legal. Tax evasion is not. Playing within the rules created by society is not morally wrong. Every deduction you take on your personal income taxes falls under tax avoidance which you can't possibly be describing as morally wrong. "The legal right of an individual to decrease the amount of what would otherwise be his taxes or altogether avoid them, by mea…

> Playing within the rules created by society is not morally wrong. There are people who honestly believe that? It’s not that simple, it really isn’t. I, for example, think there are many immoral but legal things and I want it to stay that way. The law is not supposed to perfectly mirror our morality, that would be a clusterfuck, tyranny, and otherwise a really bad idea. (For example: I think not tipping in the resta…

The best way I can visualize it is like playing a game of poker.

Bluffing is misrepresenting what you have to fool your opponent into something you don't, or more commonly, something better than you actually have. There are a variety of ways to bluff, with either betting patterns or by outright lying verbally. There are different rules in different casinos that determine whether or not you're allowed to talk about your hand, so exactly how you perform your bluffs may be limited.

Regardless, you should bluff, at least occasionally. The person who never bluffs is likely limited in the amount of money they can make as everyone will fold to the always truthful player.

Ignoring the societal questionability of poker on the whole, some poker players consider bluffing to be immoral. Generally, and certainly the people who recently fell for a bluff might feel so more strongly than those who just successfully bluffed but, and this is important, bluffing is within the rules of the game.

So long as you're not breaking the rules, there is no penalty for being clever.

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#49
Apple, as a corporation, should pay ZERO taxes. The resources invested in Apple were taxed before invested, and will be taxed again when investors realize their capital or income gains. Corporate taxes are double taxation.

It is Apple's moral duty to legally pay the minimal amount of taxes possible. Every dollar Washington or Sacramento takes from Apple and gives away as some political handout is one less dollar available for perhaps the most innovative tech company in the world. Taxes on Apple, and other tech leaders, literally undermine American competitiveness...

Re: How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhm... the other problem increasing taxes on capital gains is that most Americans in the under 50 crowd are going to use those for retirement.

The actual appreciation of their investments would be higher if you eliminated corporate income tax. And you would still get to defer payment until you sell the actual investment. Properly designed, it all evens out.

The problem is "defer payment until you sell the actual investment." which is when I have no other income coming in. This isn't going to be a rich person's problem, it effects pretty much everyone under 50.
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