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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#761

Post by volleygman180 »

judge2020 wrote: post #75
radley wrote: post #39

There's a strong chance this will be shot down as "bad-faith" compliance. Rumor is Epic will quickly contest it [Update: confirmed] https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/174740814726057173...

It'll probably need to be another lawsuit since it's in the developer agreement. Via user lolinder ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39020745 ): > Apple is already pretty clear in its developer agreement [0] that the 30% commission is for "its services as Your agent and/or commissionaire" (Schedule 2 3.4), not for its services as a payment processor. They are contractually allowed to take the 30% fee out of paym…

Apple's justification seems counterintuitive, given that the commission only applies to app sales or in-app purchases. Since free apps don't pay anything, what is the commission for if not for "services as a payment provider"?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#762

Post by zaroth »

015a wrote: post #483
AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you're side-loading, you're still using Apple IP. Every single framework and the OS itself up to the Mach OSS Kernel is Apple IP. It would be entirely unfeasible to run anything on an iPhone without some Apple IP. You'd be looking at an Asahi Linux for iPhone.

How have they leveraged this argument against the idea that the user who purchased the device has some level of right to use the IP on the phone they purchase? Phrase this question another way: if I were to write and sell some application for the iPhone through my personal website, which requires users phones to be jailbroken, would my application and business be in violation of, specifically, US intellectual propert…

You can publish your iOS source code and let your end-users compile and load the app onto their own devices, and do so without paying any commissions to Apple.

If you were to compile it yourself such that the end-user device would need to be jailbroken because it lacks the necessary digital signatures, IANAL but I think this would be totally fine on your part, and the end-user would be protected by the jail-breaking exception to the DMCA;

> Jailbreaking and Unlocking Smartphones and Tablets

Since 2010, the DMCA has allowed users to jailbreak their smartphones in order to execute lawfully obtained applications unauthorized by the phone manufacturer. Last week’s announcement reaffirmed the rationale that using unapproved applications on smartphones is fair use and limiting users’ ability to execute such applications hinders choice and impairs innovation.

https://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/latest-dmca-exemptions-r...

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#763

Post by ativzzz »

squigglydonut wrote: post #375

I'm an app designer and was able to get my PWA to look very native. This is my way to avoid the app store fees which are absolutely ridiculous. Apps take up too much storage space anyways.

Do you do IAP? Stripe or paypal is just slightly more inconvenient than Apple pay. Does not being in an app store hurt your marketability at all?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#764

Post by Me1000 »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #751
andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

What's incredible is the idea that an argument or a point of view is somehow invalidated purely because it happens to side with the trillion dollar company. This is in the same vein as "this cause is supported by teh evil Amerika, hence it must be evil" line of thinking, typically espoused by self-declared anti-imperialists (who are often mere anti-US-imperialists). >make a few people who already have everything even…

Who said "purely"? The arguments in favor of Apple here are invalid for a number of reasons. OP is just saying you don't need to bend over backwards to defend them, they're not an underdog anymore and haven't been for over a decade.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#765

Post by amplex1337 »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #751
andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

What's incredible is the idea that an argument or a point of view is somehow invalidated purely because it happens to side with the trillion dollar company. This is in the same vein as "this cause is supported by teh evil Amerika, hence it must be evil" line of thinking, typically espoused by self-declared anti-imperialists (who are often mere anti-US-imperialists). >make a few people who already have everything even…

Does this make them a better company? You are allowed to not like the way a company does business but still own an ETF that profits from their success. I still would never own an Apple item out of principal. Their marketing, hype and fanboyism are their prime success factors it feels like.

It's funny but since the rise of the iPhone I feel like society has gone straight downhill, not that they have been the only player in the smartphone game, but they sure have profited well, are the biggest drain in the industry to the home developers that contribute to their ecosystem. They pay 0 tax and aren't contributing to the better of society through computing while convincing half the population they are protecting them, etc. It's a scam.

Like many large corporations, they aren't ANY better and will plead that it is due to 'competition' while being ahead of the food chain and able to lead in any way they choose.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#766

Post by systoll »

webstrand wrote: post #755
thinkerswell wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing to me that people in this thread still don't understand free markets. You are free to use Android, or Amazon phone. Or Graphene. Or one of the many others.

Apple preventing 3rd party software not paying the apple tax from running on their phones is not "free market". The only reason they can get away with this is because of laws that protect their market from 3rd parties.

…what laws?

Apple restricts third parties almost entirely through technical measures.

Jailbreaking to bypass the technical measures is legal.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#767

Post by docmars »

Me1000 wrote: post #764
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's incredible is the idea that an argument or a point of view is somehow invalidated purely because it happens to side with the trillion dollar company. This is in the same vein as "this cause is supported by teh evil Amerika, hence it must be evil" line of thinking, typically espoused by self-declared anti-imperialists (who are often mere anti-US-imperialists). >make a few people who already have everything even…

Who said "purely"? The arguments in favor of Apple here are invalid for a number of reasons. OP is just saying you don't need to bend over backwards to defend them, they're not an underdog anymore and haven't been for over a decade.

Not to mention, Apple has been known to be too controlling and take it too far, to levels that are unfair enough to garner major public disapproval.

Their anti-developer/consumer moves are worthy of backlash, especially since Apple isn't likely going to change their positions without enough of it.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#768

Post by SLJ7 »

blackqueeriroh wrote: post #497

For everyone who thinks Google is some paragon of cooperation and openness as compared to Apple, they just got slammed in court effectively attempting to call their platform open while paying off companies to stay in the Play Store in a very similar case to Epic v. Apple. In fact, this was Epic v. Google. Why did Google lose and Apple largely win? Because Apple had always said their platform was closed and were up fr…

Apple specifically forbids developers from mentioning the 30% cut in their apps. That means either the users pay more, the developers lose money, or they do what Netflix did and just force the user to figure out how to sign up (because you can't direct people to the site either). Apple has completely draconian rules that very specifically leave users in the dark about how app store revenue works. They are in no way transparent with 99% of their customers.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#769

Post by flutas »

HatchedLake721 wrote: post #653
nolok wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that 30% is too high or too low, the problem is that it shouldn't be a % but a flat fee structure, like every other services ever. If you have an app tomorrow that sells for $10 to 10k people you owe Apple $30k, now you manage to up your price to $30, same work same size same everything, but suddenly you now owe Apple $90k ? That's called a tax, not a fee. Doing so wouldn't stop apple from having a…

> like every other services ever Apple didn’t invent a marketplace. Please have a look how other online and offline marketplaces work and how they monetize access. You can look at anything from Salesforce, Shopify, to Microsoft, Epic Store, PlayStation and your local Target store. Hint - it’s not a flat fee structure.

> Shopify

Is a flat fee structure?

Basic: $39/mo

Shopify: $105/mo

Advanced: $399/mo

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#770

Post by judge2020 »

Gabrys1 wrote: post #347
zamadatix wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You're charging too much" seems unlikely to be the actual argument presented though. Something along the lines of the scare message, still not actually allowing it to be handled via in app flow like a first party payment, and intentionally making a 3rd party choice potentially impossible to compete vs a 1st party choice by arguably hiding part of the processing fee margin in the overall fee would be the kinds of arg…

I think the percentage charged is very relevant though. And the fact the developer is to hide the fee and not list it on the receipt (subscription: $10, Apple tax: $3) And the fact you cannot charge less for the same service if you sold it outside the platform (as you'd like to do as you didn't need to collect the Apple tax).

> And the fact you cannot charge less for the same service if you sold it outside the platform (as you'd like to do as you didn't need to collect the Apple tax).

I thought that was expressly permitted - just that Apple Tax still must be collected:

> The link can mention the specific price of content on a website, or that content is discounted on the website from the App Store price. Comparisons are allowed.

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