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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#741

Post by jiqiren »

SllX wrote: post #400
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but at face value, that seems like it would be, well, quite insane? To emphasize, I've seen plenty of insane stuff in the legal system, but if the argument is basically that Epic doesn't have standing because Apple won't let them be in a position where they could have standing , yet they generally offer that position (dev program membership) to the public at large, that seems like some sort of Catch-22-ish nig…

It’s not that difficult to follow. As I recall, and feel free to correct me on the chronology if I get something out of order, it went something like this: - Epic pushed an update to Fortnite at some point to the App Store that would allow them to issue an update from the server side to enable a flag to offer Epic’s own payment processor where you could buy in-game currency from them instead of IAP. They then issued…

You missed where Epic was ordered to pay the 30% cut they "saved" when using their own payment processor. It was ruled this cut is completely legal. Now that Epic lost appeal with Supreme Court that ruling sticks.

Apple is likely asking for 27% cut for non-IAP w/Apple because they are saving 3% by not processing credit cards directly. They don't need devs complaining it's MORE expensive to use their own payment processor.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#742

Post by klabb3 »

norman784 wrote: post #646
andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

As a user I don't care for the 30% cut, what I care is to have a centralised payment method and subscription system, I don't have energy/time to keep with different subscriptions in each service/app and knowing that there are bad actors, they will do whatever possible to make hard to unsubscribe (like a few years ago the NYT, where you could only unsubscribe by phone and was very hard even so). But if even when using…

Nobody is complaining about that. Apple can freely put whatever price they want for their payment/subscription services. It’s a good product even, albeit with an outrageous price.

People are upset that developers are forced to use that product, and now with this news: pay an extortion fee on a 3p transaction that doesn’t concern Apple.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#743

Post by concordDance »

andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

People can defend Apple purely for "Someone is wrong on the Internet!" reasons. We're mostly not Homo Economicus Machiavelli who only do things for considered reasons.

(I agree that the 30% is probably bad for society though)

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#744

Post by JimDabell »

tonoto wrote: post #661
kelnos wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While most people do install apps through the Play Store, Google doesn't lock down their platform to make it the only option. I have one alternative store (F-Droid) installed, and also have a couple apps side-loaded. Google's 30% isn't the only option on Android. Apple's 30% is the only option on iOS. Regardless, Google gets plenty of flak here for a variety of things, including how they run the Play Store.

Also, Google doesn't have a developer fee. How's that Apple both have 30% commission and a "membership" fee - https://developer.apple.com/support/enrollment/ Unfortunately, many corporations only leave the choice of Windows or Macos. Open source operating systems are treated like 3rd class passengers..

Google does have a developer fee. It’s a one-off fee rather than a yearly fee, but they do have it.

https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#745

Post by stetrain »

fallingknife wrote: post #700
slimsag wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be the funniest and saddest thing I've read all year. So $MEGACORP abuses their absolute monopolistic position in the market to underhandedly negotiate with book publishers and force their hand into working the way $MEGACORP wants: in order to gain access to $MEGACORPs completely dominated (but technically not a monopoly*) audience who wishes to buy books in a convenient way online, book publishers must bow…

It's not really comparable because Amazon never did anything to try to stop anyone from buying books through any other channel. The platform they do own, AWS, unlike the iphone, is perfectly open to competitors to Amazon's retail business.

Unless you count selling books at a loss to hurt their competition.

It's a less direct form of market manipulation and one that doesn't usually meet the US's legal standards for antitrust, but it's a strategy Amazon loves to use.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#746

Post by shuckles »

kelnos wrote: post #488
AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you're side-loading, you're still using Apple IP. Every single framework and the OS itself up to the Mach OSS Kernel is Apple IP. It would be entirely unfeasible to run anything on an iPhone without some Apple IP. You'd be looking at an Asahi Linux for iPhone.

SCOTUS has ruled[0] that use (including implementation) of APIs is fair use, and does not constitute copyright infringement if the author of those APIs wishes to place restrictions on them. A developer writing an app for iOS can use the APIs provided by Apple without agreeing to license them. (Granted, you can't get your app into the App Store and onto iPhones/iPads without agreeing to whatever Apple wants you to agr…

This was about the interface not the implementation. What’s the cost of rewriting the entire iOS framework stack?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#747

Post by cryptonym »

tuyiown wrote: post #736
cryptonym wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great result. That being said, I wouldn't bet they did that just because they cared about you in a friendly way.

If it's not driven by ROI, it can only be empathy and «do the right thing»

Who said there is no ROI? Apple is no charity, they probably found another way to generate profit out of it (brand reputation, more sales, you name it). It might be better than previous situation, profit was generated in a terrible way. Still doesn't mean you owe them something nor they are being particularly "nice" with you.

If cutting it was a way to generate high profit, finance and shareholders would probably ask for this to be removed quickly. For instance, in the last vote they refused assessments on social and environmental issues.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#748

Post by macspoofing »

nevir wrote: post #469
remus wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think apple's 30% cut is excessive, but I don't think this line of argument helps. We should discuss the points on their merits, not based on who's making them and how much money they have.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

>Apple negotiates agreements with most of the major book publishers that if they want to sell books on iBooks, ebooks must be listed at the same price on ALL stores, and have a 30% margin

That's also what Amazon does, except with everything.

It's terrible what Apple is doing, but is peanuts compared to what Amazon does.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#749

Post by macspoofing »

slimsag wrote: post #568
nevir wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

This may be the funniest and saddest thing I've read all year. So $MEGACORP abuses their absolute monopolistic position in the market to underhandedly negotiate with book publishers and force their hand into working the way $MEGACORP wants: in order to gain access to $MEGACORPs completely dominated (but technically not a monopoly*) audience who wishes to buy books in a convenient way online, book publishers must bow…

Indeed - the irony was not lost on me of someone from Amazon complaining about Apple's anti-competitive behaviour. The difference is that what Amazon does is not limited to the book publishing space and a particular device. Amazon forces ALL of their sellers to normalize prices for all customers an all platforms.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#750

Post by jimbokun »

jacquesm wrote: post #518
nevir wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

Sorry but I can't find much sympathy for anything Amazon related when comparing with Apple. In my book they're both predatory.

They are not sports teams.

We should be rooting for better outcomes for consumers. Not picking between which megacorp is less bad.

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