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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#561

Post by dwaite »

EGreg wrote: post #368
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but at face value, that seems like it would be, well, quite insane? To emphasize, I've seen plenty of insane stuff in the legal system, but if the argument is basically that Epic doesn't have standing because Apple won't let them be in a position where they could have standing , yet they generally offer that position (dev program membership) to the public at large, that seems like some sort of Catch-22-ish nig…

Why can’t developers bring a class action lawsuit or someone else just open a case? They did so in Cameron vs Apple and Google … and settled I believe !

What would the suit entail? That Apple is giving a new option where they charge less than the previously agreed upon percentage?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#562

Post by dragonelite »

andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

The lords and churches of the past wouldn't even dare to ask as much as 30% of revenues in our feudal past.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#563

Post by Cu3PO42 »

Hamuko wrote: post #423
55555 wrote: post #402

Google should update the Chrome TOS so that they get 30% of all sales placed through Chrome, regardless of payment processor used. They're missing out on trillions of dollars and all they have to do is update their TOS!

Apple has thankfully figured out that there's good money in online sales so they'll in fact get a cut if you buy stuff on Safari, although only if you use Apple Pay and even then they only get a miniscule 0.15% (or less) cut. I imagine this is because they don't have the technology to skim off all transactions yet and laws prohibiting excessive processing fees.

I'd argue 0.15% is a huge cut for the service they're offering. With Apple Pay the payment is still being processed by the card scheme, the merchant's acquirer, their bank and the user's bank. Each of these charge fees and Apple's cut likely comes out of the user's bank's cut, since they are the ones co-operating with Apple to get their cards onto Apple Pay. In the EU, this fee called interchange fee is limited to 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. Imagine if Apple managed to negotiate for 50-75% of that. That would be ludicrous in my eyes.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#564

Post by ribit »

pcnix wrote: post #512
ribit wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have difficulty following this argument, especially the "stealing" part. App Store does not just randomly take money from the devs. App Store also provides a service. They do world-wide payment and VAT processing, refund processing, discovery, distribution, user login management, APIs, distributed cloud storage, etc. It costs money to run these things. As a small-time developer, I think this is a great deal for 15%…

The problem is that we place a responsibility on competition in the market to favor consumers by reducing prices and preventing companies from having excessive margins. Allowing a single marketplace means there's no competition, and we're not sure if 15% is a fair rate at all. I could make the assertion that I'd be able to provide everything that Apple does, but with a much lower cut, but this can't be put to the tes…

Do you really think that there will be more competition? I fear what will happen is that the big corps will set their own stores to distribute their own apps, and that's pretty much it. The user won't see any difference in pricing. The small dev will be hurt because each store will make less money and will likely implement price increases to compensate.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#565

Post by ribit »

commandersaki wrote: post #513
ribit wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have difficulty following this argument, especially the "stealing" part. App Store does not just randomly take money from the devs. App Store also provides a service. They do world-wide payment and VAT processing, refund processing, discovery, distribution, user login management, APIs, distributed cloud storage, etc. It costs money to run these things. As a small-time developer, I think this is a great deal for 15%…

The alternative is Apple allows side loading so that you can buy software independently of the App Store , and sellers can distribute independently of the App Store.

I am ok with side loading. Of course, side loaded apps would need to be sandboxes for security reasons and should not be allowed to access basic services like calendar, contacts or iCloud.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#566

Post by alephnan »

saintfire wrote: post #316
alephnan wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like making $6.71, the alternative is to make $0 by not selling it on the Apple app store.

Isn't that a defining trait of a monopoly position? "If you don't like it then alternative is your target market is cut by over 50%" Not a great argument. When you essentially have the say as to whether a company can afford to exist then you have serious control over a "free" market.

What is the target market? IPhone users? What's preventing the developer from shipping their app as a web app? The developer can still reach their target market.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#567

Post by onethought »

kccqzy wrote: post #187
onethought wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can the “second most popular phone” have a monopoly?

Read the ruling. It's not a monopoly. https://casetext.com/case/epic-games-inc-v-apple-inc-2 > Given the trial record, the Court cannot ultimately conclude that Apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws. While the Court finds that Apple enjoys considerable market share of over 55% and extraordinarily high profit margins, these factors alone do not show antitrust conduct. Success is not illega…

Think you should be responding to the GP - not me. I agree it’s not a monopoly. Hence why I pointed it out.

GP made the monopoly comment.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#568

Post by slimsag »

nevir wrote: post #469
remus wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think apple's 30% cut is excessive, but I don't think this line of argument helps. We should discuss the points on their merits, not based on who's making them and how much money they have.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

This may be the funniest and saddest thing I've read all year.

So $MEGACORP abuses their absolute monopolistic position in the market to underhandedly negotiate with book publishers and force their hand into working the way $MEGACORP wants: in order to gain access to $MEGACORPs completely dominated (but technically not a monopoly*) audience who wishes to buy books in a convenient way online, book publishers must bow down to $MEGACORP and pay the tax. Meanwhile, everyone else who sells books through alternative avenues is decimated because the audience only wants to buy books through $MEGACORP.

And you can replace $MEGACORP with both 'Apple' and 'Amazon', and it is 100% factually accurate. Beautiful. It's fucking turtles eating turtles all the way down.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#569

Post by onethought »

Lazonedo wrote: post #376
onethought wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why I took it to another industry that is clearly charging a fee that is unrelated to its costs. Capitalism says: the market will figure it out. Given Apple does not have a monopoly. I don’t see how any of this is a problem. If they want you to sacrifice your first born child in order to publish an app on their App Store. That’s okay. Just don’t publish your app to their phone.

> that is unrelated to its costs. Are you serious? airline companies is not a good place to be when it comes to margins and making a profit. Business class subsidizes air travel "for the rest of us". Even then, they still often depend on government subsidies to make ends meet. You say business class is a fee not related to their costs? you really don't understand how unprofitable airlines would be and how cheap air t…

You are proving my point. So what they charge in business is unrelated to their cost. They are paying for a lot more than they are getting. Exactly my point.

So “having a good business model” is punishable?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#570

Post by wouldbecouldbe »

ribit wrote: post #499
andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

I have difficulty following this argument, especially the "stealing" part. App Store does not just randomly take money from the devs. App Store also provides a service. They do world-wide payment and VAT processing, refund processing, discovery, distribution, user login management, APIs, distributed cloud storage, etc. It costs money to run these things. As a small-time developer, I think this is a great deal for 15%…

It's actually annoying that the refunds and VAT are handled.

For small international developers, under 500K per year spread out over several states & countries, often they don't have to pay VAT in most international places, so they lose an extra 20-22%. For instance most US states won't require you to pay VAT under 100K revenue if you are from another country.

Same for refunds & subscription management, often clients will ask you, but you have zero control with Apple. Let alone 60 days before being paid, where stripe does it in a few days.

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