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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

macrumors.com

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#551

Post by ffgjgf1 »

kridsdale1 wrote: post #387
pompino wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should discuss the points on their merits, not based on who's making them and how much money they have. Its not based on how much money they have. Its how they've managed to accumulate the money - by gouging devs.

[flagged]

> Why do you get to run a business off it for free?

So Microsoft did all of this on Windows (or Apple itself for that matter for macOS) due to entirely altruistic reasons?

Also platforms need developers a whole lot more than developers need specific platforms. You can always go and works at a bank or something. Apple would be skewed with no 3-rd party developers they always knew it.

> They’re also operating all the servers. Your $100 does not cover it. It’s a symbiotic relationship.

Maybe the ads on the app store would more than cover it? Not only do you need to pay 30% you also have to pay extra for placement so that Apple wouldn’t put your competitors apps at the top of the results when users search for your app?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#552

Post by nevir »

ruddct wrote: post #550
nevir wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

Don’t forget the kicker, that IAP at the time was unable to support more than a few thousand SKUs! And (iirc) that pricing, naming, etc for everything would’ve needed to be done through their atrocious web app. Not exactly doable for the ‘everything store’.

Oh, lol, I totally forgot about those technical limitations! We couldn't even have done it if we wanted to.

Also hi :) long time!

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#554

Post by vasco »

4pkjai wrote: post #433
55555 wrote: post #402

Google should update the Chrome TOS so that they get 30% of all sales placed through Chrome, regardless of payment processor used. They're missing out on trillions of dollars and all they have to do is update their TOS!

A lot of businesses spend more than 30% of their products cost on Google Ads. I know plenty of people who sell something for $20, and spend $30 on Google Ads to get that user to their site.

Pretty much every VC backed startup for the past 15 years uses that model. Startup success is in a large amount "who can use internet ads the best".

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#555

Post by hammyhavoc »

torginus wrote: post #544
nevir wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

Weird, this sounds super illegal, and anti-competitive, considering Apple has its own competing bookstore that's not subject to these fees.

In retrospect, yes, the consequences of what happened are now very obvious, but at the time, whilst there were a fair number of people sounding the alarm across the blogosphere, most people didn't care because the iPad was a hit, and the Apple reality distortion field was at its peak of effectiveness.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#556

Post by hammyhavoc »

jacquesm wrote: post #518
nevir wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a little story / timeline from 2009-2010 (from my perspective as a dev on Kindle for iOS): * we submit the Kindle app ...including an in-app bookstore... to Apple for initial app review (Note: multiple ebook readers with in-app bookstores are already on the app store at this point) * several weeks pass with no response * Apple announces in-app purchasing (to be released several months later) * Apple rejects ou…

Sorry but I can't find much sympathy for anything Amazon related when comparing with Apple. In my book they're both predatory.

Perhaps the stance to take is that it was bad for consumers in the long-term, because monopolies aren't a good thing.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#557

Post by dwaite »

SllX wrote: post #400
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but at face value, that seems like it would be, well, quite insane? To emphasize, I've seen plenty of insane stuff in the legal system, but if the argument is basically that Epic doesn't have standing because Apple won't let them be in a position where they could have standing , yet they generally offer that position (dev program membership) to the public at large, that seems like some sort of Catch-22-ish nig…

It’s not that difficult to follow. As I recall, and feel free to correct me on the chronology if I get something out of order, it went something like this: - Epic pushed an update to Fortnite at some point to the App Store that would allow them to issue an update from the server side to enable a flag to offer Epic’s own payment processor where you could buy in-game currency from them instead of IAP. They then issued…

> Apple has not chosen to re-enter a business relationship with Epic, and has rejected Epic’s offers to do business with them. It’s a simple as that.

Apple's public comments to the point have been that Epic is free to resume publishing under the developer program if they abide by the developer agreement, and Epic's CEO has stated they have no intention to do so.

Agreeing to the program terms would seem to put them in a position where they can either argue they have standing or that they have been caused harm, but not both.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#558

Post by dns_snek »

ribit wrote: post #499
andersa wrote: post #373

It's incredible that there are actually people in this thread arguing in favor of Apple. You don't need to defend the trillion dollar company. They are not your friend, they do not care about you, your work or your life. All they do is steal 30% from society that could be used for more productive purposes than make a few people who already have everything even richer.

I have difficulty following this argument, especially the "stealing" part. App Store does not just randomly take money from the devs. App Store also provides a service. They do world-wide payment and VAT processing, refund processing, discovery, distribution, user login management, APIs, distributed cloud storage, etc. It costs money to run these things. As a small-time developer, I think this is a great deal for 15%…

> You want to do distribution or payment processing? Take care of it yourself.

Yes! That's exactly what everyone wants.

> Joe the indie developer instead is dead in the water.

No, Joe the indie developer will happily use one of the most popular alternative app stores that fits their needs and doesn't rip them off with fees.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#559

Post by throwaway346434 »

camillomiller wrote: post #418
pompino wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should discuss the points on their merits, not based on who's making them and how much money they have. Its not based on how much money they have. Its how they've managed to accumulate the money - by gouging devs.

This is a biased view that disregards basic available metrics. Apple is a hardware company. Developers are instrumental to its devices success and a point can be made that 30% might be too high of a fee. On the other hand many of those developers wouldn’t have a job in the first place if it wasn’t for Apple creating the App Store.

They are a hardware company. By the same token, can you imagine a car company controlling the fuel you put in your car, the tires you buy, the repair shops you use, the radio stations you can listen to?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#560

Post by pmontra »

onethought wrote: post #157
kemayo wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving aside the potential for a critique of capitalism as a whole... it depends on what you compare it to, right? (Or, I don't get upset at the existence of business class, but I do get upset at excessive nickel-and-diming with fees in coach.) I'd tend to think of the Mac as the most-direct comparison point, where there's the App Store but also where a developer who wants to handle everything themselves can.

That’s why I took it to another industry that is clearly charging a fee that is unrelated to its costs. Capitalism says: the market will figure it out. Given Apple does not have a monopoly. I don’t see how any of this is a problem. If they want you to sacrifice your first born child in order to publish an app on their App Store. That’s okay. Just don’t publish your app to their phone.

The first two paragraphs of the Wikipedia article [1] are enough to hint that capitalism is not necessarily about free markets. Many capitalists would like to have a monopoly on the market they are in or make the rules of the market. Only a few succeed. Apple mostly succeeded especially if we think that one of markets they are in is selling iOS apps developed by third parties.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

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