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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

macrumors.com

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#241

Post by dboreham »

gruez wrote: post #198
enragedcacti wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and delivering the app bundles. The in-app payment system was a convenient way for Apple to collect its commission and a way for Apple to create a unified payment experience for its customers, but it was never the Achilles heel for Apple's business model. Is it just me or does this argument seem…

>Its like a toll road arguing "no, driving on the road is free of course, we just charge at the entrance and exit for the privilege of looking at the toll road". I mean, there's actually many toll roads/bridges that only charge for travel in one direction. The other is free, with the expectation that you'll need to make a return trip anyways.

I learned decades ago the trick to always go around the bay clockwise.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#243

Post by satvikpendem »

ralmidani wrote: post #234
llm_nerd wrote: post #74

This feels like a straw that breaks the camel's back kind of moment. Apple has gotten away with a tremendous amount (being an astonishingly greedy company. All companies are de facto greedy, but Apple is just next level in its egregious entitlement), but there is simply zero way this stands. And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that…

> And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that people will go to justify Apple's outrageous greed grows old. Heh, there are still folks who actually grasp nuance… I have an iPhone, despise Apple in general, but consider their business disputes on a case-by-case basis. So for example, Apple is right to ignore Facebook’s plea to be allowe…

Generally for Apple, I like their hardware, not their software. It's why I have a MacBook but also an Android phone, because I like their battery life but also because I can install whatever software I want, on either.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#244

Post by ralmidani »

3jjj3jjj3 wrote: post #179
llm_nerd wrote: post #74

This feels like a straw that breaks the camel's back kind of moment. Apple has gotten away with a tremendous amount (being an astonishingly greedy company. All companies are de facto greedy, but Apple is just next level in its egregious entitlement), but there is simply zero way this stands. And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that…

"being an astonishingly greedy company" and then writing "I'm an Apple fan" ... sound like a Stockholm syndrome or a cognitive dissonance

It’s called “nuance”. Also, Stockholm Syndrome is the opposite of what you’re objecting to; someone is taken hostage and sympathizes with the hostage takers.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#245

Post by babypuncher »

bradgessler wrote: post #54

Am I getting this right? Say I use Stripe as my payment processor. Stripe takes 2.9% + $0.30, then Apple takes 27% so I'm at 29.9% + $0.30 being taken out of however much I charge for my app? For a $10 app, $0.30 is 3% putting the fee at 32.9%. For the privilege of paying 2.9% more, my users get to see a scary privacy message and when I bill the customer a year later for a subscription, there's a 20-30% chance that t…

As a user, if I go to buy something in an app and it asks me to punch in my credit card number or sign in to some payment processor instead of just the usual "double click to apple pay", there is a very high chance i will just change my mind.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#246

Post by grishka »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #210
justinclift wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is hosting, distributing, and directly marketing apps in the app store. Isn't that a forced situation though, unlike with macOS? With macOS anyone can throw an application on a website (GitHub, etc) and the users can download the application and run it. To get rid of the scary warnings, there's even a $99 dev membership that can be used to sign the macOS binaries. iOS developers don't have any choices to host…

It's been a while but I'm pretty sure signing and notarizing is required on macOS now, without disabiling SIP. At least for things downloaded from a browser. My interpretation is that $99/year is required if you want to avoid your users needing to use the terminal.

It's not required. I made a macOS app recently and no way in hell am I paying that $99/year. People are still able to run it. But there is a scary warning.

On my own Mac I keep gatekeeper disabled.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#247

Post by turquoisevar »

lolinder wrote: post #154
bradgessler wrote: post #54

Am I getting this right? Say I use Stripe as my payment processor. Stripe takes 2.9% + $0.30, then Apple takes 27% so I'm at 29.9% + $0.30 being taken out of however much I charge for my app? For a $10 app, $0.30 is 3% putting the fee at 32.9%. For the privilege of paying 2.9% more, my users get to see a scary privacy message and when I bill the customer a year later for a subscription, there's a 20-30% chance that t…

This was always what the outcome was going to look like. People have been talking ever since the ruling as though dodging Apple as a payment processor was going to magically exempt developers from the full 30% fee, but that was never going to happen and it was never the intention of the ruling. Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and…

Yeah, the amazement amongst people here on HN amazes me.

The district court was crystal clear about this in their judgment, which at the time caused quite some consternation.

The appellate court then affirmed the same and even clarified more clearly that it’s completely fine because it primarily is the mechanic Apple gets payment for the use of their IP and, secondly, their services that encompass more than just payment processing.

In fact, if you read the appellate judgment, the annoyance towards the district court is palpable.

The annoyance stems from the fact that the district court states in their judgment that alternative ways of collecting the commission aren’t worth considering and expanding on because of how onerous they are (retroactive audit, collection efforts, etc.) while at the same time causing exactly that by striking the anti-steering provision and opening the door to third-party payment providers.

The appellate court doesn’t go further than expressing annoyance between the lines because, ultimately, the district court didn’t err substantially enough for the appellate court to step in, which is ultimately the bar that needs to be met. Appellate courts aren’t meant to relitigate cases, after all.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#248

Post by gepardi »

llm_nerd wrote: post #74

This feels like a straw that breaks the camel's back kind of moment. Apple has gotten away with a tremendous amount (being an astonishingly greedy company. All companies are de facto greedy, but Apple is just next level in its egregious entitlement), but there is simply zero way this stands. And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that…

Is it enough to make you stop using Apple products? I’m considering it.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#249

Post by ralmidani »

satvikpendem wrote: post #243
ralmidani wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that people will go to justify Apple's outrageous greed grows old. Heh, there are still folks who actually grasp nuance… I have an iPhone, despise Apple in general, but consider their business disputes on a case-by-case basis. So for example, Apple is right to ignore Facebook’s plea to be allowe…

Generally for Apple, I like their hardware, not their software. It's why I have a MacBook but also an Android phone, because I like their battery life but also because I can install whatever software I want, on either.

Same… Apple software has, for a while, been going steadily from “just garbage” to “dumpster fire floating through a river of sewage”.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#250

Post by babypuncher »

stevage wrote: post #238
lapcat wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many problems with this take. Here are a few: 1) Many App Store apps are completely free, paying nothing to Apple except the $99 per year fee, so they have no stake in this issue. 2) My understanding is that more than 90% of developers in the App Store make less than $1 million per year and thus are covered by the Small Business Program, which charges only 15% rather than 30%. Revenue in the App Store is…

I don't think organising a strike online is that hard. Remember the protests against FOSTA etc? Or against Reddit management? The main bit is getting people to care.

Users outnumber developers 1,000:1 and users will never really care about this.
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