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OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

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Re: OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

#151

Post by jonnybgood »

amrocha wrote: post #129
andrewstuart wrote: post #116

I was brought up in a household that was anti military. Only as an adult was I able to form my own opinion. Without a strong military in the past we would certainly not be here today and without a strong military now, who knows what other nation might decide to attack our sovereignty. It's childish to be anti military - it shows you do not understand the interconnectedness of our society - good and bad.

I could make literally the opposite argument. Other countries antagonize the US because of its military interventionism. If the US had lower military spending, other countries wouldn't feel the need to be aggressive. It's childish to be pro military. It shows you think arbitrary lines on a map determine who's good or bad.

I don’t think that opposite argument works given the current geopolitical situation which has nothing to do with the US being aggressive. Russia would have very likely completed its conquest of Ukraine by now and moved on to the Baltic states (NATO relies on US military spending to compensate for lack of spending of other NATO members). Taiwan would belong to China yesterday, along with the rest of the Indo-Pacific.

Re: OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

#152

Post by aleph_minus_one »

ericmay wrote: post #117
zug_zug wrote: post #103

Slightly off-topic, but it's absolutely shocking to me how quickly OpenAI has managed to do a meteoric PR nosedive. I think within 6 months they've gone from one of the most exciting (yet controversial) non-profits in the world to mistrusted company that it seems most people are rooting against.

I personally welcome cooperation with the Pentagon for OpenAI and other American companies. The disdain that seems to infest so many when it comes to working with our national defense organizations is both annoying and bewilderingly naive and that's even when we take into consideration all of the bad things that happen. Strengthening partnerships with our government certainly doesn't make me mistrust OpenAI.

> The disdain that seems to infest so many when it comes to working with our national defense organizations is both annoying and bewilderingly naive and that's even when we take into consideration all of the bad things that happen.

I think yor phrase "our national defense organizations" summarizes the counterargument: a lot of readers/commenters on HN live in other countries.

Re: OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

#153

Post by TulliusCicero »

amrocha wrote: post #129
andrewstuart wrote: post #116

I was brought up in a household that was anti military. Only as an adult was I able to form my own opinion. Without a strong military in the past we would certainly not be here today and without a strong military now, who knows what other nation might decide to attack our sovereignty. It's childish to be anti military - it shows you do not understand the interconnectedness of our society - good and bad.

I could make literally the opposite argument. Other countries antagonize the US because of its military interventionism. If the US had lower military spending, other countries wouldn't feel the need to be aggressive. It's childish to be pro military. It shows you think arbitrary lines on a map determine who's good or bad.

> If the US had lower military spending, other countries wouldn't feel the need to be aggressive.

Ah, just like Ukraine thwarted Russian ambitions with its low defense spending pre-2014. Why bother invading a defenseless country, after all?

And those poor sods in the Baltics got invaded by Russia and overthrown after joining NATO, of course, since that needlessly antagonized Putin.

Re: OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

#154

Post by [deleted] »

andrewstuart wrote: post #116

I was brought up in a household that was anti military. Only as an adult was I able to form my own opinion. Without a strong military in the past we would certainly not be here today and without a strong military now, who knows what other nation might decide to attack our sovereignty. It's childish to be anti military - it shows you do not understand the interconnectedness of our society - good and bad.

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

#155

Post by halJordan »

Aeolun wrote: post #95
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #59

Good! I'm tired of all of the SV companies presupposing that government work must be unethical. Even if the work is for weapons, having the largest advantage possible will prevent or shorten wars and save lives. Do you want your sons and daughters to fight a fair fight?

> Do you want your sons and daughters to fight a fair fight? I don’t want them to fight at all. But more importantly, I don’t want anyone friend or “foe” to die from faulty AI decisions. I can sort of reconcile some human bomber pilot making a mistake and hitting a family home, but if AI does the same thing it’s just wrong.

Nobody wants to fight. Like the op said, it's the presupposition that "ofc they're sociopaths, of course they want pain, death, and suffering"

You dont have the monopoly on abhorring human suffering. It's been decided US policy since Bush to deter rather than defeat US enemies and as much as you hem and haw about the word enemy, they do consider themselves enemies of the US.

Re: OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

#156

Post by marcus_holmes »

ericmay wrote: post #117
zug_zug wrote: post #103

Slightly off-topic, but it's absolutely shocking to me how quickly OpenAI has managed to do a meteoric PR nosedive. I think within 6 months they've gone from one of the most exciting (yet controversial) non-profits in the world to mistrusted company that it seems most people are rooting against.

I personally welcome cooperation with the Pentagon for OpenAI and other American companies. The disdain that seems to infest so many when it comes to working with our national defense organizations is both annoying and bewilderingly naive and that's even when we take into consideration all of the bad things that happen. Strengthening partnerships with our government certainly doesn't make me mistrust OpenAI.

I think the problem is that US "Defense" seems to involve a lot of foreign wars and "police actions" in countries that pose no conceivable threat to the USA.

The thing we all dread is AI-driven drones carrying out extra-judicial killings to promote US commercial interests in other countries. So far there seems to be nothing preventing this except the unwillingness of AI companies to co-operate with the "defense" industry. That apparently is no longer the case.

Re: OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

#158

Post by SEJeff »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #153
amrocha wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could make literally the opposite argument. Other countries antagonize the US because of its military interventionism. If the US had lower military spending, other countries wouldn't feel the need to be aggressive. It's childish to be pro military. It shows you think arbitrary lines on a map determine who's good or bad.

> If the US had lower military spending, other countries wouldn't feel the need to be aggressive. Ah, just like Ukraine thwarted Russian ambitions with its low defense spending pre-2014. Why bother invading a defenseless country, after all? And those poor sods in the Baltics got invaded by Russia and overthrown after joining NATO, of course, since that needlessly antagonized Putin.

Let’s not forget Chechnya, who’s former capital of Grozny was legit turned into a level parking lot.

Re: OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

#159

Post by jart »

andrewstuart wrote: post #139
amrocha wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could make literally the opposite argument. Other countries antagonize the US because of its military interventionism. If the US had lower military spending, other countries wouldn't feel the need to be aggressive. It's childish to be pro military. It shows you think arbitrary lines on a map determine who's good or bad.

That's the world view that my family came from - very leftist and peace loving. "If only everyone put down their guns there would be no need etc etc". But it's not the world we live in - we live in a military world - that's real and not a hope/fantasy about a different civilisation without war or weapons. We have to have a society suited to the world we live in. And by the way I remain very much left wing and at the…

If a nation needs to defend itself then it's already lost, because that means it was weak enough that someone else thought they could win by attacking it. Sun Tzu said a supreme nation would subjugate its enemies without needing to fight them.

Re: OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pentagon

#160

Post by marcus_holmes »

andrewstuart wrote: post #116

I was brought up in a household that was anti military. Only as an adult was I able to form my own opinion. Without a strong military in the past we would certainly not be here today and without a strong military now, who knows what other nation might decide to attack our sovereignty. It's childish to be anti military - it shows you do not understand the interconnectedness of our society - good and bad.

The USA has a larger military than the next 5 nations combined.

The USA is not under threat from anyone. This would still be true if the US military was a tiny fraction of its current size.

The USA does, however, use its vast military to attack other countries without provocation, seemingly to protect commercial interests.

I don't think it's "childish" to be suspicious of the US Military. I worry about the mentality in the USA that everyone needs to protect themselves all the time with firearms. I don't understand why everyone seems to be scared that someone else is going to do bad things to them if they're not armed to the teeth. I suspect this is projection.

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