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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#191

Post by jongjong »

I always hated native apps and found them to be very high friction, both as a user and as a developer. I have no idea what's wrong with people. Why are people so keen to install untrusted, intrusive software onto their devices when they can access them in the safety of their browser without downloading anything. When I was younger, people were very careful about what software they installed on their machines, you'd have to be insane to opt to install some software if you could just run it directly from a browser. Aside from a few niche use cases where the app needs access to device sensors, it really doesn't make sense.

With Apple, I feel like people are under some kind of spell. I cannot relate to their behavior. It's ironic that they've become exactly what they were claiming to be working against in their 1984 advert. It's has become some kind of big brother mind control operation.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#192

Post by scarface_74 »

lolinder wrote: post #154
bradgessler wrote: post #54

Am I getting this right? Say I use Stripe as my payment processor. Stripe takes 2.9% + $0.30, then Apple takes 27% so I'm at 29.9% + $0.30 being taken out of however much I charge for my app? For a $10 app, $0.30 is 3% putting the fee at 32.9%. For the privilege of paying 2.9% more, my users get to see a scary privacy message and when I bill the customer a year later for a subscription, there's a 20-30% chance that t…

This was always what the outcome was going to look like. People have been talking ever since the ruling as though dodging Apple as a payment processor was going to magically exempt developers from the full 30% fee, but that was never going to happen and it was never the intention of the ruling. Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and…

If all the developers I assume you care about left the App Store, Apple wouldn’t care. The apps that make the majority of the money on the App Store are slimy pay to win games where “whales” buy coins and loot boxes.

The other popular apps are front end for services where Apple doesn’t collect a dime like Facebook, Instagram, Netflix, etc.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#193

Post by justinclift »

stouset wrote: post #177
poundofshrimp wrote: post #145

To see why Apple’s mandatory commissions are absurd, compare phones to desktop computers. There is no fundamental difference between the two. So, why is it okay to install whatever you want and pay for it directly on desktops, but on phones it is not? The “better security” argument just doesn’t make sense in this context.

Apple is hosting, distributing, and directly marketing apps in the app store. They are reviewing submitted apps for compliance with their policies and security requirements. If you want to compare it to desktop computers, great! Compare it to the macOS App Store which… takes a 30% commission. Whether or not you personally agree that 30% is a reasonable fee, you can't simply deny that operating the app store costs mon…

> Apple is hosting, distributing, and directly marketing apps in the app store.

Isn't that a forced situation though, unlike with macOS?

With macOS anyone can throw an application on a website (GitHub, etc) and the users can download the application and run it.

To get rid of the scary warnings, there's even a $99 dev membership that can be used to sign the macOS binaries.

iOS developers don't have any choices to host their binaries elsewhere though.

The EU "allow side loading" thing might allow for some improvement there (hopefully), but I'm not sure.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#194

Post by aikinai »

jussaying2 wrote: post #174
lolinder wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The details of the process of getting approval for links may be out of line, but the idea that simply using a different payment processor would remove the entirety of the 30% commission was always a pipe dream. Apple has always been adamant that the fee is for the service of using the App Store, not the payment processor, and that you owe them for sales made regardless of whether they're able to take the money direct…

> Apple has always been adamant that the fee is for the service of using the App Store, not the payment processor So charge developers for the service of using the App Store, perhaps with a per-download cost. To "give away" the service of the App Store only to recuperate your costs (and then some) via payment processing is just daylight robbery.

In the US, highways are almost all free but ”payment” is roughed charged through gasoline taxes. You also pay for sewage service based on how much water you use, not how much sewage you produce, based on the assumption that most of your water goes into the sewer.

Charging customers by some other correlated proxy is not robbery; it’s just practical. Which is exactly why the court had no issues with the arrangement.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#195

Post by lolinder »

enragedcacti wrote: post #189
lolinder wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was always what the outcome was going to look like. People have been talking ever since the ruling as though dodging Apple as a payment processor was going to magically exempt developers from the full 30% fee, but that was never going to happen and it was never the intention of the ruling. Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and…

> Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and delivering the app bundles. The in-app payment system was a convenient way for Apple to collect its commission and a way for Apple to create a unified payment experience for its customers, but it was never the Achilles heel for Apple's business model. Is it just me or does this argument seem…

I agree that it's an oddly-applied pricing system, but it's not unique. Apple's differential pricing functions similarly to student and senior discounts—it's an acknowledgment that some customers are harder to get than others and it's worth it to the company to meet those customers where they are.

Some apps don't make any money at all, and Apple wants to let those exist and so they get a free pass. For others, Apple is only providing a tiny portion of the value of the app, most of it comes from the content that the app licenses from other companies. Apple recognizes that they can't take 30% from those apps without them giving up on an app entirely, so they get a discount in order for them to stay on the platform.

Is it fair? Probably not. But I see no reason to believe it's illegal.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#196

Post by enragedcacti »

kccqzy wrote: post #187
onethought wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can the “second most popular phone” have a monopoly?

Read the ruling. It's not a monopoly. https://casetext.com/case/epic-games-inc-v-apple-inc-2 > Given the trial record, the Court cannot ultimately conclude that Apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws. While the Court finds that Apple enjoys considerable market share of over 55% and extraordinarily high profit margins, these factors alone do not show antitrust conduct. Success is not illega…

> It's not a monopoly.

> The Court does not find that it is impossible; only that Epic Games failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#197

Post by scarface_74 »

jacquesm wrote: post #123
jamil7 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird take. It’s similar to saying workers pre unionisation and labour movements were complicit in enabling poor working conditions.

App store developers are suppliers, they don't work for Apple nor do they have to work for Apple. Technically Apple re-sells their product. But they could and should unite in order to increase their bargaining power. You see the same with every supermarket chain. But what I think would happen is that there would be enough hold-outs from such an effort that Apple would come out on top because the players in the eco -s…

Do you think that the King.com and the other large companies that make all of their money by selling coins for pay to win games are going to join the boycott?

It came out in the Epic trial that’s where 90% of the revenue comes from. It’s not from small indy developers

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#198

Post by gruez »

enragedcacti wrote: post #189
lolinder wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was always what the outcome was going to look like. People have been talking ever since the ruling as though dodging Apple as a payment processor was going to magically exempt developers from the full 30% fee, but that was never going to happen and it was never the intention of the ruling. Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and…

> Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and delivering the app bundles. The in-app payment system was a convenient way for Apple to collect its commission and a way for Apple to create a unified payment experience for its customers, but it was never the Achilles heel for Apple's business model. Is it just me or does this argument seem…

>Its like a toll road arguing "no, driving on the road is free of course, we just charge at the entrance and exit for the privilege of looking at the toll road".

I mean, there's actually many toll roads/bridges that only charge for travel in one direction. The other is free, with the expectation that you'll need to make a return trip anyways.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#199

Post by lolinder »

scarface_74 wrote: post #192
lolinder wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was always what the outcome was going to look like. People have been talking ever since the ruling as though dodging Apple as a payment processor was going to magically exempt developers from the full 30% fee, but that was never going to happen and it was never the intention of the ruling. Apple argued from the very beginning that the 30% was its fee for running the App Store, marketing the apps, and storing and…

If all the developers I assume you care about left the App Store, Apple wouldn’t care. The apps that make the majority of the money on the App Store are slimy pay to win games where “whales” buy coins and loot boxes. The other popular apps are front end for services where Apple doesn’t collect a dime like Facebook, Instagram, Netflix, etc.

I'm on Android and get most of my apps through F-Droid. I don't have any stake in this fight at all, I'm just an observer who's been a bit baffled by the conclusions that people have jumped to.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#200

Post by jagged-chisel »

jjcm wrote: post #167

So I'm about to embark on a submission process for an iOS app that has a subscription currently, and I'm wondering if any app store pros can give advice, especially in light of this. The app is a reddit-like site where you subscribe for an amount you choose (say $10/mo), the site takes a $1 cut, and the remaining $9 gets distributed between everything you upvote that month (creators get sent this money into their str…

Until you hit $1million in revenue, it’s 15%. And it’s 15% on all the money you collect. Because these are digital services and not physical products, Apple takes their cut. You will need to factor that into your business model.

It doesn’t matter how you distribute the money on your end. While you can definitely reflect the exact amounts involved to your customers, it might be wise to convert incoming money to something else, perhaps simply “credits.”

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