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Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

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Re: Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

#71

Post by danielrhodes »

The world would be a better place if we could all just be happy with standardized legal agreements: the pros/cons are easier to know ahead of time for both parties, you don't need much legal advice around them, and there isn't a lot of legal busy work that nobody really wants to do (even lawyers).

Having said that, the common answer from a lawyer of "it depends" is often true: there are often a lot of nuances that many people don't consider. For example you would think a mutual NDA should be pretty standard, but as it turns out it can be really complex.

Re: Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

#72

Post by duckmysick »

Here's something related that I've been wondering about: what if the client is from another country? Let's say the company is from the Netherlands and they are selling a service to another company in the US.

Which country's law should apply? Do they get a Dutch or an American lawyer? Is the contract written in Dutch or English (or both)? In case of a legal dispute, which court do they go to? Is the invoice in dollars or euros?

Re: Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

#73

Post by mannyv »

duckmysick wrote: post #72

Here's something related that I've been wondering about: what if the client is from another country? Let's say the company is from the Netherlands and they are selling a service to another company in the US. Which country's law should apply? Do they get a Dutch or an American lawyer? Is the contract written in Dutch or English (or both)? In case of a legal dispute, which court do they go to? Is the invoice in dollars…

Having worked at a few places with international clients, I can tell you that nobody in their right mind would sue someone located overseas if they can help it.

A few year ago international lawyers were charging about 400/hr for contract review services. Actually filing a lawsuit would be prohibitively expensive for a client unless the amounts in question were super-large (probably around 1m or more).

International agreements for small companies are really a show of good faith. In reality it's money-up-front and be prepared to turn down the service on non-payment.

Re: Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

#74

Post by samstave »

shermantanktop wrote: post #47
chadash wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but there are some things where you should really get expert advice. Child custody is one of them. I think with legal docs generally, you have to decide what the stakes are and act accordingly. In general, keep in mind that most lawyers won't take a case unless there's someone with deep pockets to sue. So for that $20k loan you give to a friend, a boilerplate template is fine; if they don't want to pay you bac…

I have a friend in a messy divorce. With custody, all rational thought has gone out the window. Cost of lawyers? Doesn’t matter, sue! Need to comply or get fined? Don’t care. Court ordered therapy? Don’t feel like it. The pockets that fund this behavior will be empty at some point. But until then, primal irrational impulses are running the show. In a case like that, the difference between the right legal docs and the…

To be honest; We need a "divorce/came-into-money-IPO/WTF do when tech couples split?" TECH DOCUMENTS (For all parties - but specifically their kids) thingy...

Re: Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

#76

Post by mixmastamyk »

traceroute66 wrote: post #68
grepfru_it wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My liability insurance asks who drafts the legal agreements in engagements and, if it is my company, they explicitly ask if a lawyer is involved.

> My liability insurance asks who drafts the legal agreements in engagements and, if it is my company, they explicitly ask if a lawyer is involved. Yup. This is precisely one of the points I was getting at. If your business has liability insurance and ESPECIALLY if your business has professional indemnity insurance, then really you have zero option but to pay a lawyer to draft a contract. Read the proposal form you s…

Not sure I understand the context of this sub-thread?

What kind of lawsuits (and need for liability insurance) should be expected for a software SaaS with a TOS that basically says "we're not liable for anything...". As every software terms state (grumble).

From the sound of it, seems you two are talking about providing something moderately mission critical.

Re: Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

#77

Post by toomuchtodo »

samstave wrote: post #74
shermantanktop wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend in a messy divorce. With custody, all rational thought has gone out the window. Cost of lawyers? Doesn’t matter, sue! Need to comply or get fined? Don’t care. Court ordered therapy? Don’t feel like it. The pockets that fund this behavior will be empty at some point. But until then, primal irrational impulses are running the show. In a case like that, the difference between the right legal docs and the…

To be honest; We need a "divorce/came-into-money-IPO/WTF do when tech couples split?" TECH DOCUMENTS (For all parties - but specifically their kids) thingy...

Prenup for assets, judges in family court for kids. Why no docs for custody and kids in general? Because a disinterested human needs to make the decisions at the time the exception occurs.

(have volunteered some time as a guardian ad litem, and most in my circle are divorced, from the homeless to a billionaire)

Re: Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

#78

Post by traceroute66 »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #76
traceroute66 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My liability insurance asks who drafts the legal agreements in engagements and, if it is my company, they explicitly ask if a lawyer is involved. Yup. This is precisely one of the points I was getting at. If your business has liability insurance and ESPECIALLY if your business has professional indemnity insurance, then really you have zero option but to pay a lawyer to draft a contract. Read the proposal form you s…

Not sure I understand the context of this sub-thread? What kind of lawsuits (and need for liability insurance) should be expected for a software SaaS with a TOS that basically says "we're not liable for anything...". As every software terms state (grumble). From the sound of it, seems you two are talking about providing something moderately mission critical.

> with a TOS that basically says "we're not liable for anything...".

And therein lies the problem.

You may think that stating "we're not liable for anything" is an easy get out of jail free card.

The reality is that drafting LOL (Limitation Of Liability) clauses is an artform that evolves constantly inline with emerging case-law in your jurisdiction.

You see, there's this little problem of someone called a judge.

Judges tend not to like people who take the piss and draft one-sided contracts. Judges have many powers, one of which is ruling to disregard unlawful or unfair contract clauses. Shitty LOL clauses are like a red rag to a bull for a judge !

A good commercial lawyer will know how far you can take your LOL clauses without taking the piss.

At the end of the day, if you're selling SaaS, then "we're not liable for anything" is unlikely to cut it in the vast majority of jurisdictions in this world.

So that also answers your second question about why liability and indemnity insurance exists. For the stuff you can't LOL.

Re: Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

#80

Post by mixmastamyk »

traceroute66 wrote: post #78
mixmastamyk wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I understand the context of this sub-thread? What kind of lawsuits (and need for liability insurance) should be expected for a software SaaS with a TOS that basically says "we're not liable for anything...". As every software terms state (grumble). From the sound of it, seems you two are talking about providing something moderately mission critical.

> with a TOS that basically says "we're not liable for anything...". And therein lies the problem. You may think that stating "we're not liable for anything" is an easy get out of jail free card. The reality is that drafting LOL (Limitation Of Liability) clauses is an artform that evolves constantly inline with emerging case-law in your jurisdiction. You see, there's this little problem of someone called a judge. Jud…

Ok, thanks. I agree this is a concern that exists and is a worry for some. But I'm looking for concrete examples of what kinds of events and businesses are most at risk.
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