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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

macrumors.com

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#71

Post by lxgr »

MBCook wrote: post #64
lxgr wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. For obvious reasons, the US government and justice system is probably not interested in being the beta tester for such a regulation – they have relatively little to gain and much to lose. Even "green bubbles" seem to be a much bigger point of contention in US public discourse than sideloading/the 30% tax. But if the DMA it ends up working well well and consumers like it, and app stor…

What does the US have to lose? I don’t think that really matters at all. No one (in the legislative branches) cares enough to pass something about this. Is basically impossible to get things past anyway recently, even far more important things than this.

Hurting one of its biggest companies for something that turns out to not be in the interest of the voting public after all would be kind of a big deal!

Even an ineffective regulation that neither hurts nor harms consumers but ends up hurting Apple would probably be seen very negatively.

> Is basically impossible to get things past anyway recently, even far more important things than this.

Very true, and another point in favor of inertia. The only thing that could possibly break that is seeing a similar regulation be a slam dunk in a comparable market, but even then it's a big if, I agree.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#72

Post by MBCook »

danenania wrote: post #63
MBCook wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft had like 95% of the market. Apple has 50%. Courts have already ruled they’re not a monopoly. Epic asked the Supreme Court to look at that again and they specifically decided not to and to leave the decision in place. That’s why Apple can do what they’re (now, post order) doing legally and Microsoft couldn’t.

iOS and Android taken together are clearly a monopoly though. So call it a cartel or duopoly with price fixing if you like rather than a monopoly. It's exactly the kind of situation that antitrust laws were created to prevent.

Unless you can find proof of collusion I’m not sure it matters.

Making matters worse the Google Play Store is completely optional you’ve been able to side load for years. To the degree Google prevented that they just got kicked in the teeth for it.

So you’re going to have to argue that the combination of the Apple App Store, plus Google, plus Samsung, plus everything else all work together to screw over users.

Good luck.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#73

Post by radley »

karmasimida wrote: post #50
lacker wrote: post #47

These conditions are onerous enough that the Kindle app probably still cannot handle in-app purchases. It's really pretty annoying that I have to leave the Kindle iOS app and go to the Kindle web app to make a purchase. Obviously it wouldn't cost either Apple or Amazon anything to allow this, it wouldn't be insecure or unsafe in any way, and it would be nice for consumers. So the fact that Apple and Amazon haven't ma…

I found myself actually able to use browser to purchase Kindle books on iPhone now, is it because of this lawsuit?

Apple can't control browser content, only capabilities, so you could always make purchases via Safari, Chrome, etc.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#74

Post by llm_nerd »

This feels like a straw that breaks the camel's back kind of moment. Apple has gotten away with a tremendous amount (being an astonishingly greedy company. All companies are de facto greedy, but Apple is just next level in its egregious entitlement), but there is simply zero way this stands.

And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that people will go to justify Apple's outrageous greed grows old.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#75

Post by judge2020 »

radley wrote: post #39

There's a strong chance this will be shot down as "bad-faith" compliance. Rumor is Epic will quickly contest it [Update: confirmed] https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/174740814726057173...

It'll probably need to be another lawsuit since it's in the developer agreement. Via user lolinder ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39020745 ):

> Apple is already pretty clear in its developer agreement [0] that the 30% commission is for "its services as Your agent and/or commissionaire" (Schedule 2 3.4), not for its services as a payment processor. They are contractually allowed to take the 30% fee out of payments collected, but merely using a different payment processor doesn't remove the obligation to pay them for their other "services as Your agent and/or commissionaire".

0: https://developer.apple.com/support/terms/apple-developer-pr...

In addition, from the original ruling:

> Yvonne-Gonzalez was skeptical of the 30% fee during the trial, and in the ruling she was suspicious about Apple's justification of the commission, writing that "the 30% is not tied to anything in particular and can be changed," but did not order Apple to do so.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#76

Post by radley »

turquoisevar wrote: post #61
radley wrote: post #39

There's a strong chance this will be shot down as "bad-faith" compliance. Rumor is Epic will quickly contest it [Update: confirmed] https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/174740814726057173...

Depends. If we’re talking about the details of the implementation, maybe. If it’s about the commission that still needs to be paid, then no. That’s directly mentioned in the original ruling by the district court, a commission is due regardless.

I think the real problem is unlimited access to accounting books for any business that has an iOS app. This will affect free apps too, since they now have the potential to offer purchases outside the app store. (Obviously, strategic partners and FAANG are exempt.)

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#77

Post by app_boi92 »

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this. Consider the following scenario:

Developer puts out ads on Facebook (or some other way of getting traffic). Traffic flows to the developer's checkout page, where they buy access to in app content on an external website. Then they are linked to the app store where they can download the app and access the content.

Apple is paid no commission on this transaction. They only require commissions paid when the customer is sent to the website FROM the app store and checks out within 7 days.

If this is in fact true, then payment / support service recommendations would be great to hear right now!!

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#78

Post by Hikikomori »

danpalmer wrote: post #18
lxgr wrote: post #8

So Apple will be collecting 27% (instead of 30%) for... what exactly? They might just get away with something as crass in a vacuum, but given that the DMA will go into effect very soon, there will be a point of reference in a similar economy, and I don't think it'll be pretty for Apple. US regulators (federal or state; I could see something equivalent to GDPR and CCPA) will be taking a very close look.

> So Apple will be collecting 27% (instead of 30%) for... what exactly? Off the top of my head... - Bandwidth - Running the App Store for users - Marketing the App Store - App review - Security efforts to keep malware off the store - Making App Store optimisation tools for developers There's a lot of moving parts to this. You could argue that none of this is necessary if you sideload, but distribution is worth a lot…

So charge a fee based on usage of the specific services then? Flat 30% of monthly subscriptions when they're not even providing the service of sending that audio and video to the device is insane.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#79

Post by ksec »

What a bloody pile of mess. In order to guard their interest, and everyone wants a pieces of it, now we have an Apple ecosystem that is... just ugly. And it is only gong to get worse.

I often wonder had Apple lowered their In-App purchase to 10% would we still have the same problem.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#80

Post by grishka »

danpalmer wrote: post #18
lxgr wrote: post #8

So Apple will be collecting 27% (instead of 30%) for... what exactly? They might just get away with something as crass in a vacuum, but given that the DMA will go into effect very soon, there will be a point of reference in a similar economy, and I don't think it'll be pretty for Apple. US regulators (federal or state; I could see something equivalent to GDPR and CCPA) will be taking a very close look.

> So Apple will be collecting 27% (instead of 30%) for... what exactly? Off the top of my head... - Bandwidth - Running the App Store for users - Marketing the App Store - App review - Security efforts to keep malware off the store - Making App Store optimisation tools for developers There's a lot of moving parts to this. You could argue that none of this is necessary if you sideload, but distribution is worth a lot…

Sure, all these things cost a lot of money. What if I would like to market, host, and distribute my own app, without any Apple involvement?

From my own experience, the app store brings negative value to both the users and the developers in many cases. It's most often seen not as the godsend like Apple portrays it, but as a stupid obstacle course that you need to clear every time you publish a new app or an update to an existing one, and sometimes even when you don't.

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