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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#51

Post by btown »

nerdawson wrote: post #7

They want a 27% commission on sales made from those links and the right to audit companies' accounts for compliance. https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1747406430054097099 It's beyond a joke. Between that and the payment processing fees, you're no better off. In fact, you get all of the same costs but none of the benefits of Apple's app store native payment infrastructure.

This is still huge for mobile gaming, though. Per https://developer.apple.com/support/storekit-external-entitl... :

> Apple’s commission will be 27% on proceeds you earn from sales (“transactions“) to the user for digital goods or services on your website after a link out (i.e., they tap “Continue” on the system disclosure sheet), provided that the sale was initiated within seven days and the digital goods or services can be used in an app.

As any F2P gamer knows, “whales” don’t just spend up front - they make microtransactions on a regular basis for months or years as new rewards become available. This is incredibly meaningful for game publishers who depend on long-term customer engagement.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#52

Post by MBCook »

karlshea wrote: post #46
danenania wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems a lot more egregious that anything Microsoft did in the 90s. While MS tried to push their own products and lock out competitors, they never tried to take a massive cut of all the software on their OS. The level of sheer FU everyone chutzpah is pretty impressive. They're indeed making quite a joke out of antitrust at this point.

I'm not sure that's a direct comparison. Back then sure you could get shareware but mostly the market was paid boxed software. I can't find a direct source but I remember hearing brick-and-mortar retailers would take even more than 30% of sales. And Visual Studio sure wasn't free. Everything was different though, you'd be paying for your OS upgrades too which doesn't happen on iOS. I agree 30% is crazy, but the marke…

Throughout the multiple trials that has been a big argument Apple makes. That especially for smaller companies their cut is drastically lower than it would have been for retail software on shelves.

Which conveniently ignores the fact that you can buy software for digital download on the Internet for significantly lower overhead.

But they keep arguing it.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#53

Post by Vespasian »

MBCook wrote: post #32
lxgr wrote: post #8

So Apple will be collecting 27% (instead of 30%) for... what exactly? They might just get away with something as crass in a vacuum, but given that the DMA will go into effect very soon, there will be a point of reference in a similar economy, and I don't think it'll be pretty for Apple. US regulators (federal or state; I could see something equivalent to GDPR and CCPA) will be taking a very close look.

The DMA has surprisingly little effect on the US. In the EU has the 30% (or now 27%) been found illegal? I know they’re being forced to allow other app stores or side loading or something. But what about the fee?

Well if they try any shady business here (e.g. forcing a fee, limiting competitors contractually, lot's of big scary warnings for everything) the EU is standing by for rounds two, three etc.

The regulatory rules passed in the DMA are written to allow action without the need to go through the whole legislative process.

I predict it will come to that. Apple is gonna fight this tooth and nail to the very end. And unless they change their attitude and business practices, Europe has very little too lose by piling more and more rules on them.

The 27% is not really a problem if there were a competitive market. If one emerges we'll see if not...see above.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#54

Post by bradgessler »

Am I getting this right? Say I use Stripe as my payment processor. Stripe takes 2.9% + $0.30, then Apple takes 27% so I'm at 29.9% + $0.30 being taken out of however much I charge for my app? For a $10 app, $0.30 is 3% putting the fee at 32.9%.

For the privilege of paying 2.9% more, my users get to see a scary privacy message and when I bill the customer a year later for a subscription, there's a 20-30% chance that their credit card will have expired.

If this isn't a monopoly abusing its dominate market position, then what is?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#55

Post by MBCook »

greg_V wrote: post #45
nerdawson wrote: post #7

They want a 27% commission on sales made from those links and the right to audit companies' accounts for compliance. https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1747406430054097099 It's beyond a joke. Between that and the payment processing fees, you're no better off. In fact, you get all of the same costs but none of the benefits of Apple's app store native payment infrastructure.

Apple is acting like a state within their domain. Collecting a VAT and requiring compliance that's reserved usually for the national tax office with inspective powers. Having locked in the richest consumers of the world, they get to say what goes and what doesn't, worldly courts and laws be damned. It's both hilarious and gruesome at the same time, because we're supposed to be equal under consumer laws or whatever, b…

[flagged]

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#56

Post by MobileVet »

I am curious if any businesses operating with the ‘pay Apple their cut’ on outside sales actually do?

Does Apple have the manpower to chase every developer for that fee? Do they really expect to collect it or is it more of a threat?

Any HN people with first hand knowledge of a business paying that fee?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#57

Post by klabb3 »

greg_V wrote: post #45
nerdawson wrote: post #7

They want a 27% commission on sales made from those links and the right to audit companies' accounts for compliance. https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1747406430054097099 It's beyond a joke. Between that and the payment processing fees, you're no better off. In fact, you get all of the same costs but none of the benefits of Apple's app store native payment infrastructure.

Apple is acting like a state within their domain. Collecting a VAT and requiring compliance that's reserved usually for the national tax office with inspective powers. Having locked in the richest consumers of the world, they get to say what goes and what doesn't, worldly courts and laws be damned. It's both hilarious and gruesome at the same time, because we're supposed to be equal under consumer laws or whatever, b…

The infuriating part is that this isn’t about computing or distribution. They already charge for that separately. It’s a triple dip just because nobody stops them.

Most of the modern digital consumer economy is based on products and services which are device-agnostic. If I’m using Spotify or Netflix or something they are service providers and the iPhone/ipad is just a client device. Apple should have no marginal returns (a cut) on money that should go to artists, actors, developers. They’ve already charged massively for both their physical products and their services.

Antitrust law is a joke. This has always been glaringly obvious since Jobs first came up with this shit. The fact that it still ain’t fixed is a travesty, not just for tech nerds, but it impedes the digital economy at large.

The greediest thing of it all is that they’re actually providing a service people would pay premium for - in-app purchases and their “all subscriptions in one place” without dark pattern harassment is very nice for consumers. They have a legit product worth a ton yet they still refuse to compete fairly. Anti-market capitalism..

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#58

Post by yakz »

themerone wrote: post #30

A 27% cut will make a 3rd party payment service a non starter for all but the biggest app. For small players a 3% savings isn't worth the administrative overhead of paying apple separately. Apple is begging for another lawsuit over this.

Is there a 3% savings there or is that just covering the typical fee from the payment processor?

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#59

Post by lxgr »

karmasimida wrote: post #50
lacker wrote: post #47

These conditions are onerous enough that the Kindle app probably still cannot handle in-app purchases. It's really pretty annoying that I have to leave the Kindle iOS app and go to the Kindle web app to make a purchase. Obviously it wouldn't cost either Apple or Amazon anything to allow this, it wouldn't be insecure or unsafe in any way, and it would be nice for consumers. So the fact that Apple and Amazon haven't ma…

I found myself actually able to use browser to purchase Kindle books on iPhone now, is it because of this lawsuit?

Do you mean an in-app browser in the Kindle app, or just amazon.com in Safari?

I don't see how Apple would prohibit me from visiting a website, and they've allowed use of content/subscriptions purchased elsewhere in iOS apps for a while now.

What has not been allowed (at least until today) is to directly link to that external website.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#60

Post by danenania »

karlshea wrote: post #46
danenania wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems a lot more egregious that anything Microsoft did in the 90s. While MS tried to push their own products and lock out competitors, they never tried to take a massive cut of all the software on their OS. The level of sheer FU everyone chutzpah is pretty impressive. They're indeed making quite a joke out of antitrust at this point.

I'm not sure that's a direct comparison. Back then sure you could get shareware but mostly the market was paid boxed software. I can't find a direct source but I remember hearing brick-and-mortar retailers would take even more than 30% of sales. And Visual Studio sure wasn't free. Everything was different though, you'd be paying for your OS upgrades too which doesn't happen on iOS. I agree 30% is crazy, but the marke…

"I remember hearing brick-and-mortar retailers would take even more than 30% of sales"

I'd say the key difference there is that Microsoft didn't own all those retail stores.

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