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On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

catandgirl.com

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Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that, we should stop pursuing art and prose? Because when you fine tune midjourney with 30 or so images of an artist, it can create any image with the artist's style. You removed the value and authenticity that artist in 30 minutes, you applauded it, and defended that it should be the norm. OK then, we can close down all entertainment business, and generate everything with AI, because it can mimic st…

"So you're saying that, we should stop pursuing art and prose?", no, it becomes a hobby like any other. People still sew for fun.

Great, hold on, I'm calling Hollywood to tell that all they do is a hobby now.

...and the writers' guild, too.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#382
The comment section is going to be filled with people saying that this is fair use, and I'm sympathetic to that argument (even though I do feel like we should be mature enough thinkers to have the capability to tell the difference between the morality of building on top of a commons and plundering it). I'm very openly not a copyright maximalist; I think there's real danger in equating training to copyright infringement, and I think it's an argument that might come back to bite artists in the future -- I do worry that the current lawsuits are misguided.

However, in every single conversation about fair use, two followup questions need to be asked:

1. If you're making the argument that AI's "learning" from existing pieces is just like a human learning from existing pieces, then you're indirectly comparing that AI to a human being. So let's be consistent about that analogy: commissioning or working with a human artist to produce a piece of art does not grant you copyright over that art.

To people who are saying that AIs training are just like humans learning from art, do you support the idea that AI-generated works can not be copyrighted? Because that's the consistent view of AI as analogues for human training: commissioning humans doesn't grant you copyright.

2. If we're viewing AI training as fair use, then is it fair use to circumvent the licenses on these models in order to train other models on them? The majority of these commercial tools have explicit clauses in their terms of service to prevent their use when training other AIs. Is it fair use to circumvent that TOS?

If the TOS is in a different category that somehow magically gets rid of the fair use question, then if an artist puts up a TOS in front of viewing a piece of artwork that says it may not be used to train AIs, does training on that art stop being fair use?

It doesn't make sense that one shrinkwrap license would be OK and one wouldn't be. If Midjourney has a legal case that circumventing its TOS and gaining access isn't fair use, then artists should be able to put up a click-through in front of images that includes an agreement not to train and that should be legally enforceable.

If artists can't do that, if artists can't legally enforce terms of use in front of artwork about how that artwork can be used, then commercial companies building these models shouldn't be able to either.

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It's not that the fair use argument doesn't hold any water, it's that people tend to be very selective about how they want that argument applied. And I think that's revealing. Taking a step back from those questions:

It's somewhat frustrating to have debates on this because the debates are very abstract and are disconnected from the completely bad-faith way in which these arguments are often proposed. You're forced to debate in a very dry way, and what you really want to do is step back and say, "none of these companies actually believe in open culture, all of them are copyright maximalists when it's convenient, none of them care about accessibility of art tools, they just want to plunder the culture and insert themselves as middlepeople between art and the people who make art."

We all know this is a grift. We know what these companies actually believe, but we have to pretend we're having some kind of emotionless conversation about "Open" models and to look at their uses as if the primary intended audience is people using image generators to make printouts for their local D&D campaigns.

But come on, that's not the reality that's ever going to happen.

That kind of indie, low-cost usage and Open access can't exist in the long-term if these models are intended to be the commercial powerhouses that companies want. Monetization of their output and access necessarily requires restriction of their output and access. The truth that we all kind of know deep down is that these models are about inserting a monetary layer between human beings and art, a layer that is owned by private corporations and is deliberately used (regardless of its quality or suitability) to devalue labor and to poison the resources that these models were built on in order to reduce competition and to give gatekeepers more leverage over their workforces and their markets. It's a tragedy of the commons being played out in real time: the creation of a service that just like every other privatized platform will become crappier and worse over time as more control over model use is taken away and as prices increase and as restrictions over usage are increasingly layered on top normal individuals who will increasingly need to ask permission in order to create. At the same time, businesses hope that model usage will shrink and dilute the fields that are necessary to sustain those models, fields that are now treated as competitors, and who's destruction is desirable because the elimination of that resource makes it harder to replicate or compete with established AI models.

As is very often the case, the goal is to get up a ladder and then pull the ladder up.

That doesn't mean that this isn't fair use (although as someone who advocates very strongly for expansion of fair use and heavy reduction of copyright, I will say that fair use and morality are two entirely different subjects). But we can advocate for fair use without pretending that the companies and grifters making these arguments actually believe them. Actual ubiquitous open access to AI art tools would be toxic to a company like Midjourney; Midjourney's entire business model relies on them constructing an artificial moat in front of the production of art that forces creators to give them money. And the existence of that moat relies on Midjourney being able to restrict what people can do with their model, it can not exist without strong legal protections around copyright and licensing agreements. If Midjourney actually believed in free culture and free use, they wouldn't be launching a private model behind Discord with a bunch of ridiculous license terms telling people what does and doesn't count as fair use when using Midjourney. They wouldn't be pretending that model outputs are covered by copyright. As far as I'm concerned, every single "license" in front of model weights or model output is an admission that the companies behind those models don't actually believe in the fair use argument. They're just saying it because it's convenient.

I would love to have a purely intellectual debate about AI as a genuinely open tool that can fit into artists' belts alongside other tools. I would love to ignore the hype cycle and the spammers and the grifters who all couldn't care less about making creation accessible or expanding the scope of what artists create. But unfortunately, I can't; there's a real world that exists alongside that hypothetical debate, and we are allowed to look at that real world for context. And I can be sympathetic to the fair use argument while still recognizing the utter hypocrisy behind how companies actually use that argument, and while still recognizing that the direction that large companies are pushing AI and the way they want to use AI is toxic to real artists.

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That doesn't mean I'm panicking about it any more than I'm panicking about GPT trying to program. I understand the limitations of these tools as well, and a little bit of perspective goes a long way. But I still understand why artists are upset. I don't always agree with the specific arguments but it's not just them being sore losers or something, they have a legitimate grievance with the AI market even if they don't always perfectly know how to put it into words.

And in a lot of ways, this doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of the output or about what's "better" or "fair" anyway; that's not really what the debate is about. Midjourney would be perfectly happy to live in a world where all art gets kind of crappy and repetitive as long as everybody uses Midjourney to produce it. They don't care, they just want you to pay them every time you generate a picture. So the social dynamics around the market are very different from the technical dynamics or even the philosophical arguments that people make.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#383
post #211
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I firmly believe that training models qualifies as fair use. I think it falls under research, and is used to push the scientific community forward. I also firmly believe that commercializing models built on top of copyrighted works (which all works start off as) does not qualify as fair use (or at least shouldn't) and that commercializing models build on copyrighted material is nothing more than license laundering. C…

If I read a lot of stories in a certain genre that I like, and I later write my own story, it’s almost by definition going to be a mish-mash of everything I like. Should I pay the authors of the books I read when I sell mine?

I feel like the keyword is 'almost' and then you begin pulling on that thread:

How closely is this the case? What blind spots exist? How do you measure this? What is the capacity for original idea generation does the human mind have and how does it inspire a unique spin to it?

This is one of those areas where 'thought experiments' are never going to pass muster against genuine experiments with metrics, trial, and robist scientific research.

But with the stakes as they are, I dont have faith there exists a good faith dialogue in this arena.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably there is - training is not a copyright violation imo. I think it's more akin to you viewing the art and then later making your own thing, you get an intuition/inspiration from what you've seen. The other complaints are mostly about how it has become hard to not share to social media, but that's mostly a complaint about how people are. He can still just post on a website, it's not really the fault of social m…

Its not like looking and getting inspiration, its looking and being able to almost perfectly duplicate the style. Their complaint is not being able to post art for its own sake because it will be hoovered up into datasets to train more AI: They are forced to submit to helping train AI or not post their art.

> Its not like looking and getting inspiration, its looking and being able to almost perfectly duplicate the style.

You cannot copyright a style. A person is perfectly within their right to copy your art style when they produce their own work. So, I think "duplicate the style of" and "taking inspiration from" are the same thing in this context.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#385
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called paying copyright owners -- artists. The economic model can be worked out, but it's not the status quo, where software companies take all the profit and artists are left with nothing.

Amazing how everyone is an intellectual property zealot now.

Yeah I would also point out... If copyright terms were shorter, perhaps people would be less tempted to hoover up modern artists' and writers' works.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#386
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we are humans and our capability of abusing those rights is limited. The scale and speed at which LLMs can abuse copyrighted work to threaten the livelihoods of the authors of those works is reason enough to consider it unethical.

> ...reason enough to consider it unethical. But unethical =/= illegal, unfortunately.

But unethical =/= illegal, unfortunately.

That is very much fortunate.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is evidence that GPT Can violate copyright, not that all of the outputs do. It supports an argument that GPT shouldnt produce outputs that are extremely similar, not that the content can not be used as an input.

I suspect a single verbatim output of sufficient length is enough to poison the entire weight set as a derivative work as well as all the output it ever generated

I dont necessarily disagree, but by what logic or argument do you make that case?

Does that mean that models that can not produce copies of X length ARE fair use?

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A valuable company that is built from the work of content others created without transferring any value back to them. But they are free to use the fruits of the model, same as anyone else. I suppose the difference is they don't care; they already have the talent to transform their labor into visual art, so what use do they have for a visual-art-generation machine? I find strong parallels in the building of web craw…

Or they lost means of income? Like is this a difficult concept? Livelihoods will most likely be lost and probably never really coming back. Sure we can say industries change; however, we had protections in place to prevent artists losing money due to people copying… A company has said “screw the rules, here’s a supercharged printer.”

Imagine someone came up with a way to print houses for nearly-free. Anyone needs shelter? Bam, instant house.

Landlords would lose income left and right.

The relevant question is: would society stop the building of these free houses to protect the interest of the landlords?

(Now, take that analogy and throw it in the trash. ;) Housing is essential; art is fundamentally a luxury good. If we want to, we can have a society that protects profit-making on luxury goods and profit-making on necessities differently. "Someone is losing income, therefore this change is bad" is too simple a rule to build a healthy society upon, but a reasonable person can conclude "Artists are losing their livelihoods, therefore this change is bad").

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair use is not a copyright violation! It’s a limitation placed on copyright to balance the interests of copyright holders with the public interest.

It's seems just like a poor choice of words and semantic argument around the term "violate". Fair use is an affirmative defense — you concede you did this thing that would be illegal if not for this other extenuating information/circumstance. This is similar to claiming self-defense in a murder case — yes I killed that person, but it's not murder since I can show it was self-defense. In this case it would be 'yes, I…

Thank you, yes - affirmative defense is exactly what I was trying to think of but couldn't remember.

Re: On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train Midjourney

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If you think OpenAI is less valuable because it can't use copyrighted content, then it should give some of that value back to the content. But we are allowed to use copyrighted content. We are not allowed to copy copyrighted content. We are allowed to view and consume it, to be influenced by it, and under many circumstances even outright copy it. If one doesn't want anyone to see/consume or be influenced by one's…

I agree with the other commenters about the scale of this “deriving inspiration from others” is where this feels wrong. It feels similar to the ye olden debates on police surveillance. Acquiring a warrant to tail a suspect, tapping a single individual’s phone line, etc all feels like very normal run-of-the-mill police work that no one has a problem with. Collating your behavior across every website and device you own…

In that example it's not the scale that makes it right or wrong, the scale of people impacted just affects the degree of wrongs that have been committed.

> Acquiring a warrant to tail a suspect, tapping a single individual’s phone line, etc all feels like very normal run-of-the-mill police work that no one has a problem with.

If acquiring a warrant is the basic action being scaled, I'd be okay with that ethically if it was done under, what I define as, reasonable pretenses. Regardless of how it scales, I still think it would be the right thing to do assuming the pretenses for the first action could be applied to everyone wiretapped. Now if I thought the base action was morally wrong (someone was tailed or wiretapped without proper pretenses), I'd think it's wrong regardless of the scale. The number of people it affected might impact how wrong I saw it, but not whether it was right or wrong to.

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