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Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

jcarlosroldan.com

21–30 of 392 posts

Re: Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

#21
post #7

I recently ordered something on ebay. Nothing expensive, just a £60 item, and delivered to an address I've ordered many things to in the past. First I had to log into ebay - no problem, got my password manager right here, as soon as I unlock my phone with my fingerprint. Now I'll just key in my 12 character, randomly generated password with mixed case letters, numbers and symbols. Then ebay decided they wanted to sen…

Why would you submit yourself to using PayPal when you don't have to? Serious question.

Re: Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

#22
post #10
post #7

I recently ordered something on ebay. Nothing expensive, just a £60 item, and delivered to an address I've ordered many things to in the past. First I had to log into ebay - no problem, got my password manager right here, as soon as I unlock my phone with my fingerprint. Now I'll just key in my 12 character, randomly generated password with mixed case letters, numbers and symbols. Then ebay decided they wanted to sen…

In a couple decades I had to verify my bank once with PayPal

In their defence, I'm sure the parties involved would blame EU Strong Customer Authentication rules and claim that they "don't have a choice"

Re: Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

#24
post #19
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thieves and other "bad actors" are often a consequence of deeper underlying problems. People don't tend to steal that much when they are economically comfortable. OTOH with no legal resort to get sustinence, you're guaranteed to get people to resort to illegal means. I'm rather baffled how educated adult human beings keep on analyzing the world using moralistic fairytale level concepts like "bad actors" or "evildoers…

Nah, thieves are scum. People don't steal cars and bikes to buy food, they do it because they're selfish and want a shortcut to get the things they want. In any first world country there are ways to get food without resorting to taking other peoples' possessions that they worked hard for. There are many people out there having a really hard time who would never even think about stealing because they were raised with…

This is why we can't have nice things.

Re: Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

#25
post #8

I understand the frustration with login systems, but why is the title "Passwordless: A Different Kind of Hell" if it doesn't talk about passwordless authentication, like passkeys, magic links, and biometrics?

It talks about passkeys and biometrics though.

Re: Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

#26
post #7

I recently ordered something on ebay. Nothing expensive, just a £60 item, and delivered to an address I've ordered many things to in the past. First I had to log into ebay - no problem, got my password manager right here, as soon as I unlock my phone with my fingerprint. Now I'll just key in my 12 character, randomly generated password with mixed case letters, numbers and symbols. Then ebay decided they wanted to sen…

Why would you submit yourself to using PayPal when you don't have to? Serious question.

It's quicker than entering your credit card details and address again and again.

Re: Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

#27
post #5

The reason this happens is because of bad actors. This is why we can’t have nice things. Walk around and pay attention next time and you will notice all the little things that are shitty because of bad actors like thieves.

Thieves and other "bad actors" are often a consequence of deeper underlying problems. People don't tend to steal that much when they are economically comfortable. OTOH with no legal resort to get sustinence, you're guaranteed to get people to resort to illegal means. I'm rather baffled how educated adult human beings keep on analyzing the world using moralistic fairytale level concepts like "bad actors" or "evildoers…

If you were poor, you'd be carjacking people?

Re: Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

#28
post #5

The reason this happens is because of bad actors. This is why we can’t have nice things. Walk around and pay attention next time and you will notice all the little things that are shitty because of bad actors like thieves.

Thieves and other "bad actors" are often a consequence of deeper underlying problems. People don't tend to steal that much when they are economically comfortable. OTOH with no legal resort to get sustinence, you're guaranteed to get people to resort to illegal means. I'm rather baffled how educated adult human beings keep on analyzing the world using moralistic fairytale level concepts like "bad actors" or "evildoers…

I think the original commentor used thieves as an example of a general problem. There are other ways to arrive at the same outcome. Mistakes Greed, ambition, sociopathic tendencies lead to the same overly complex rules and regulations. There will always be a small minority of people that break the social contract . People who share a password without knowing any better may not be evildoers,but the outcome of their actions is the same.

Re: Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

#29
post #5

The reason this happens is because of bad actors. This is why we can’t have nice things. Walk around and pay attention next time and you will notice all the little things that are shitty because of bad actors like thieves.

Thieves and other "bad actors" are often a consequence of deeper underlying problems. People don't tend to steal that much when they are economically comfortable. OTOH with no legal resort to get sustinence, you're guaranteed to get people to resort to illegal means. I'm rather baffled how educated adult human beings keep on analyzing the world using moralistic fairytale level concepts like "bad actors" or "evildoers…

I try to avoid making moral judgements as much as possible, because moral judgements are thought-terminating clichés.

Re: Passwordless: a different kind of hell?

#30
Note that all uses of the password before the computer were not for personal security, but organizational security. If the enemy infiltrated without the use of the password, it could mean the downfall of an empire.

Today we use passwords largely for personal security. Yet when companies choose what methods of authentication/authorization they offer, they don't care what the user wants. They pick methods that will make their own jobs easier, rather than giving the user more convenience. The user has no agency today; it's just take what they give you and be thankful for it.

As a result, the tech landscape is full of wildly varying authn+z methods. Inconsistent password policies, inconsistent challenge methods (when they exist), inconsistent use (and types) of MFA, inconsistent use of hacker-prevention methods, the occasional use of single sign-on for only a few identity providers, "magic login email links", nearly non-existent use of client-side keys, etc etc. Almost every site you login to today will have a different system. Passkeys aren't much better, because it too is just a hodge-podge of different standards, not all of which need to be supported.

We need more consistency for the methods that exist. There should be a standard for challenge questions, a standard for hacker-detection, a standard for password policies, a standard for MFA, etc. That way it will be a little less haphazard how everyone implements them, and it will be easier to prevent security bugs by following the guidelines for implementing the standard.

But I also think more should be done to advocate for what the user wants. If the user wants to use a regular password, let them enable it. If the user wants to disable MFA, let them disable it. If they want to opt-out of the multi-layered hacker-detecting challenge-questions, let them opt-out. This is, after all, their personal security, not the security of the entire company selling them some service or product. A person should be able to decide their personal security level.

Alas, we don't really have much choice in what current companies give us. But if we voice our opinions loud enough, maybe new companies will give us the agency we want, and maybe that tiny competitive edge will prompt other companies to match them.

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