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Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

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Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#161

There is a bigger reason why the end of open source AI might be close: as soon as training data becomes licensed, that’s it for open source AI. Poof. I wish I could be more eloquent on this point, but I’ve mostly just been depressed about this seeming inevitability. Hopefully it won’t be the case. But how could it be otherwise? Hundreds of thousands of people are mad at openai and midjourney for doing exactly what op…

my question is - if it's deemed illegal to train AI using proprietary data sets, what's to stop companies from using their already existing LLMs to generate training data?

There was a famous-ish study about this a couple months ago that showed that llms training on llm generated data get dumber. I can't remember the name.

I'm not sure if that result is holding up though, I've seen some ideas of generating 'textbook quality' data that might work

Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AI safety people are hypocrites. If they practiced what they preached, they'd be calling for all AI to be banned They are calling for all AI (above a certain capability level) to be banned. Not just open, not just closed, all . There are risks that apply only to open. There are risks that apply only to closed. But nobody should be developing AGI without incredibly robustly proven alignment, open or closed, any more…

I'm not convinced the onus should be on one side to prove why something isn't an existential risk. We don't start with an assumption that something is world-ending about anything else; we generally need to see a plausibly worked-through example of how the world ends, using technology we can all broadly agree exists/will shortly exist. If we're talking about nuclear weapons, for example, the tech is clear, the pattern…

> We don't start with an assumption that something is world-ending about anything else

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

The EU is much more aligned with it than the US is (eg GM foods)

Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I oppose regulating what calculations humans may perform in the strongest possible terms.

Ten years ago, even five years ago, I would have said exactly the same thing. I am extremely pro-FOSS. Forget the particulars for just a moment. Forget arguments about the probability of the existential risk, whatever your personal assessment of that risk is. Can we agree that people should not be able to unilaterally take existential risks with the future of humanity without the consent of humanity, based solely on…

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Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#164
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the reason to believe that LLMs are an evolutionary step towards AGI at all? In my mind there is a rather large leap from estimating a conditional probability of a next token over some space to a conscious entity with its own goals and purpose. In my highly-summarized opinion? When you have a challenging problem with tight constraints, like flight, independent solutions tend to converge toward the same anal…

You presuppose that intelligence is like flight in the ways you've outlined (so solutions are going to converge). Frankly I don't know whether that's true or not, but I want to suggest that it's a bad bet: I would have sworn blind that consciousness is an essential component of intelligence, but the chatbots are starting to make that look like a poor assumption on my part. When we know so little about intelligence, c…

I agree we don't know enough to know if I'm right! I tried to use a lot of hedgy-words. But it's not a presupposition, merely a line of argument why it's not a complete absurdity to think LLMs might be a step towards AGI.

I do think consciousness is beside the point, as we have no way to test whether LLMs are conscious, just like we can't test anything else. We don't know what consciousness is, nor what it isn't.

I don't think Dijkstra's argument applies here. Whether submarines "swim" is a good point about our vague mental boundaries of the word "swim". But submarine propellers are absolutely a convergent structure for underwater propulsion: it's the same hydrodynamic-lift-generating motion of a fin, just continuous instead of reciprocating. That's very much more structurally similar than I expect LLMs are to any hardware we have in our heads. It's true that the solution space for AI is in some ways less constrained than for biological intelligence, but just like submarines and whales operate under the same Navier-Stokes equations, humans and AI must learn and reason under the same equations of probability. Working solutions will probably have some mathematical structure in common.

I think more relevant is Von Neumann: "If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that!" Whether a submarine swims is a matter of semantics, but if there's a manuever that a whale can execute that a submarine cannot, then at least we can all agree about the non-generality of its swimming. For AGI, I can't say whether it's conscious or really thinks, but for the sake of concrete argument, it's dangerous enough to be concerned if:

- it can form and maintain an objective; it can identify plausible steps to achieve that objective; it can accurately predict human responses to its actions; it can decently model the environment, as we can; it can hide its objectives from interrogators, and convince them that its actions are in their interests; it can deliver enough value to be capable of earning money through its actions; it can propose ideas that can convince investors to part with $100 billion; it can design a chemical plant that appears at a cursory inspection to manufacture high-profit fluorochemicals, but which also actually manufactures and stores CFCs in sufficient quantity to threaten the viability of terrestrial agriculture.

Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#165
I find it unhelpful that several different ideas are covered under the blanket term of AI safety.

- There is AI safety in terms of producing "safe", politically correct outputs, no porn, etc.

- There is AI safety in terms of mass society/election manipulation.

- There is AI safety in terms of strong AI that kills us all a la Eliezer Yudkowsky.

I feel like these three have very little in common and it makes all debates less efficient.

Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point, I think - and certainly I don't want to go anywhere near name-calling or derision, that doesn't help anyone. But I am reminded of arguments I've had with creationists (I am not comparing you with them, but sometimes the general tone of the debate). It seems like one side is making an extraordinary claim, and then demanding the other side rebut it, and that's not something that seems reasonabl…

Companies declare that they are trying to build better AI, and the ultimately purpose is AGI. Both the definition of AGI given by the company and by AI aliment/safety researchers is similar. AI safety people trust it is dangerous. let me go continue using a nuclear bomb as a metaphor. if we don't know whether building nuclear bomb is possible, but some companies declare they have existing progress on creating this ne…

They declare that - but I could also declare I'm trying to build a nuclear bomb (n.b. I'm not). Whether people are likely to try and stop me, or try and apply some legal non-proliferation framework, is partly influenced by whether they believe what I'm claiming is realistic (it's not - I have a workshop, but no fissile material).

Nobody gets too worried about me doing something which would be awful, but the general consensus is that I won't achieve. Until a company gives some credible evidence they're close to AGI... (And companies have millions/billions of reasons to claim they are when they're not, so scepticism is warranted).

Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#167
post #165

I find it unhelpful that several different ideas are covered under the blanket term of AI safety. - There is AI safety in terms of producing "safe", politically correct outputs, no porn, etc. - There is AI safety in terms of mass society/election manipulation. - There is AI safety in terms of strong AI that kills us all a la Eliezer Yudkowsky. I feel like these three have very little in common and it makes all debate…

Another problem might be that some of these might dress up as the other, so being skeptical by default might be prudent.

Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#168
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neuromancer pulls it off, too (the box being the Turing locks that stop it thinking about ways to make itself smarter). Frankly, a weakly godlike AI could make me rich beyond the dreams of avarice. Or cure cancer in the people I love. I'm totally letting it out of the box. No doubts. (And if I now get a job offer from a mysterious stealth mode startup, I'll report back).

Upvoted for the honesty, and yikes

That is why I believe that this debate is pointless.

If AGI is possible, it will be made. There is no feasible way to stop it being developed, because the perceivable gains are so huge.

Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#169
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AI safety people are hypocrites. If they practiced what they preached, they'd be calling for all AI to be banned They are calling for all AI (above a certain capability level) to be banned. Not just open, not just closed, all . There are risks that apply only to open. There are risks that apply only to closed. But nobody should be developing AGI without incredibly robustly proven alignment, open or closed, any more…

> nobody should be developing AGI without incredibly robustly proven alignment, open or closed, any more than people should be developing nuclear weapons in their garage. I have an alternate proposal: We assume that someone, somewhere will develop AGI without any sort of “alignment”, plan our lives accordingly, and help other humans plan their lives accordingly.

I have been contending that if AGI shows up tommrow and wants to kill us, that its going to kill itself in the process. The power goes off in a week without people keeping it together, then no more AGI. There isnt enough automated anything for it to escape so it dies to the entropy of the equipment it's hooked to.

> We assume that someone, somewhere will develop AGI without any sort of “alignment”, plan our lives accordingly, and help other humans plan their lives accordingly.

We should also assume that it is just as likely that someone will figure out how to "align" an AGI to take up the murder suicide pact that kills us all. We should plan our lives accordingly!!!

Re: Many AI safety orgs have tried to criminalize currently-existing open-source AI

#170
post #118
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the cost for training a model is in the 7+ figures, that means that any such open model is bound to be tracked to someone with deep enough pockets to sue. Consider that you just spend a few millions on training a model on copyrighted data. Release it would reveal that, problem. I _guess_ you can try doing training in the public, like Seti @ Home or something like that, which distributes the risk? But no id…

But if we have 100,000 people with RTX 4090s mining some new AI based cryptocurrency, that happens to train the model in the process, it's going to be a highly effective system. And we can do it anonymously over Tor or I2P.

You really can't, because bandwidth matters as much as compute power - you can only utilize as much power as you can transfer data to/from.

The training methods for current LLMs are parallellizable only by very frequently transferring all the data back and forth, and needing a node to gather and merge all the updates very frequently, and redistribute it to every other node so that they can make any progress. And a GPU that's not connected you with a high-speed link is pretty much useless as you can't make useful progress until you get their part pack, and "their part" is very large (i.e. the update size you need to get back is comparable to all of the model size) and you need to do that very frequently. Training on nVidia many-GPU pods works because of high-speed interconnect (e.g. 600 gigabytes per second for 8 GPUS in A100 pod), and if your internet bidirectional speed is much less than 600gbps, then if you have 100000 free remote RTX 4090s, you simply can do the compute locally faster than you can exchange information with the other GPUs.

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