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AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

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Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistic view: Unemployment is actually at an all time low despite centuries of industrialization, automation, etc. AI technology is becoming a commodity at a rapid rate. OpenAI has some nice data moat but their tech is being copied left right and center and much of what they do has been replicated successfully by others; including some open source projects. I don't see OpenAI end up with all the profit here. AI is…

> Unemployment is actually at an all time low despite centuries of industrialization, automation, etc. You've got an interesting point there. But I'm wondering, isn't this mostly true for places like the US? Looking at it globally, it's a bit of a mixed bag: the global unemployment now is higher than 30 years ago, for example. And about the industrialisation bit – I mostly agree with you, but let's not forget the har…

> Small sidenote: calling your own view 'realistic' might put some people off. It sort of implies other opinions are not, you know?

I'm just countering the cynical view here; which at least puts me off. Anyway, there's always somebody that is going to disagree. To me the cynical view is historically always there and usually wrong.

I don't actually agree that AI is causing any perceived worker injustice. The US is a bit special because it generally seems be a bit different than the rest of the world in terms of a lack of worker protections. Like getting decent health insurance, job protections, and not being forced to work crazy hours just to get slightly over the poverty line. Whether you agree with that or not, a lot of that predates the whole "AI is bad" debate and is simply the result of decades long policy. Rolling back some of that or changing those policies is a different topic. IMHO that would be a good thing regardless of AI or any other transformative economic effects of other innovations.

And to counter that, I've mostly lived in places where things arguably are not that bad. People get decent insurance. They don't work crazy hours. And they mostly get paid fair wages for what they do. There are some exceptions to that of course. But people are doing pretty OK and I don't think that will change because of AI. I just don't see the need for a lot of pre-emptive measures here.

Globally, we have more people than ever and they are wealthier and more healthy than ever. Sure, there are some pretty grim outliers but that's mostly in places with despotic regimes and really crappy economies. That too is not caused or made much worse by AI.

Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#62
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask ourselves? Who is us? Your comment doesn’t apply if everyone has access to their own local AGI. Right now training is expensive and inference is cheap. There’s no reason to believe that inference cost will suddenly balloon when we cross the line to general intelligence.

It's easier to understand if you flip the perspective. The AGI has access to you .

Why are you letting your AGI run wild? Let’s make the assumption that AGI is just a GPT combined with a new training algorithm that allows it to learn rapidly and generalize from small amounts of information. The moment you turn off the training algo your AGI reverts to what’s essentially a next token predictor. It retains everything it learns but is unable to form long term memories.

I think it would be very hard for anyone to be manipulated by an entity without long term memory.

Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#63

AI runs on electricity, which we can produce a joule directly of for much cheaper than we can produce a joule of food to feed a human on. This is a fundamental consequence of thermodynamics. It will eventually require us to ask ourselves whether we are willing to arbitrarily prioritize our own species over the cheaper to run alternative. We human beings, however, have both the first mover advantage and a natural inst…

Wa da el

Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's other kinds of income, like dividends. They just get paid to shareholders, rather than laborers.

A company's income comes from people spending and consuming. The propensity to consume of owners is less than workers. The more you invest in machinery and lay off workers, the fewer people you have with income they want to spend, and that's when the prices plummets.

It depends what business you're in. If you're a company making yachts, supercars, or private jets, then owners consume much more than workers.

As wealth shifts to fewer hands, companies making mass-market goods are forced to drop prices, squeezing their margins and forcing consolidation and further automation, as the buying power of the customer base disappears. Investment capital shifts into the luxury sector where demand is growing, and prices and production quantities increase.

More and more of the economy gets dedicated to serving the needs of the wealthy (which is essentially what what it means for the rich to get richer).

Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tools are built to serve man. AI is just another tool. This logic reads as an attempted proof that no man-made machine or technology can ever possibly be net harmful. That seems like an argument easily punctured. "This is no different" is also a leap, because humans have a large but finite number of ways to be of service to each other. Mechanization augmented one of them, which shifted more value onto the remainder…

> humans have a large but finite number of ways to be of service to each other. I’m not so sure this is finite. My entire career is a service job that didn’t exist two generations ago.

Yes, but you're performing that task using mental hardware that existed millennia ago.

New jobs can and will be created, but will you be able to beat AI at those jobs?

Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#66
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly do you think you can learn at that point, that'd give you market value?

Seriously: it's time to get an MBA if you've ever considered it. Why? Because an MBA teaches one how organizations operate, from non-profits, to government agencies, to startups, and all the transitions to a major conglomerate. As AI proposes to change how all this is done, those of us that understand the essentials of designing, implementing, and maintaining dynamic automated systems that incorporate AI to operate o…

It AI makes senior engineers obsolete what makes you think it won't do the same to MBAs

Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easier to understand if you flip the perspective. The AGI has access to you .

Why are you letting your AGI run wild? Let’s make the assumption that AGI is just a GPT combined with a new training algorithm that allows it to learn rapidly and generalize from small amounts of information. The moment you turn off the training algo your AGI reverts to what’s essentially a next token predictor. It retains everything it learns but is unable to form long term memories. I think it would be very hard fo…

The counter point to that, is that in order to get AGI you will need long term memory.

In which case we will design a long term memory at first to gather the benefits that came come AGI.

Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#68
post #23

I too remember 2017 and headlines about millions upon millions of people being replaced by robots around 2025. I even saw videos of little bots peforming the job of baristas, trucks self driving, and all sorts of other crazy things. Not that they are not doable but you know, they are difficult to implement by people that have no clue how things work, let alone how humans interact.

They underestimate the difficulty of the technology, which does not mean they overestimate the impact that technology can have.

The difficulty of the technology is crucial to understanding what is happening right now. Developing ai is _hard_, unless you cheat and steal content, plagiarise people, and the promise riches to those replacing said people.

What caught my eye is that according to the IMF jobs in the west will be affected harder than elsewhere. Meaning poor countries will benefit more. Also as with manufacturing jobs will be sent there since lower skilled workers can now perform the same task better and cheaper.

The only real issue with ai is that people will indeed be replaced, not fully, but where they are expensive by those that are cheap.

Furthermore, services such as health care and education will regress significantly in the west. Instead of solving the underlying issues your doctor will be replaced by a fast and concise google search made by ai on your behalf. The future looks bleak in the west to be honest.

So called ai will in fact mean a massive transfer of knowledge from rich to poor countries, while keeping poor countries rich, and people in rich countries poor and docile - as it has always happened when tech was designed to “help and enhance”.

Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#69
My personal anecdote:

Parents recently sold their $1.5M+USD house (2021) to the owner of an online transcription/translation company (human staffed) -- an "expensive rich house" where they live.

The free Whisper.app (works on Mac, including Intels) delivers the new homeowner's entire company product [transcription/translation] about 40x faster than real-time-playback, which is hundreds of times faster than any human employee could listen and translate. For FREE.

I expect to see new owner's forclosure notice any moment. Certainly human worker(s) still check over the translations, but for most [potential] customers a perfect document is not necessary, particularly considering Whisper.app is FREE to use off-line [1]. An absolutely incredible piece of software — runs lighting fast on my M2Pro.

[1] https://openai.com/research/whisper/

Re: AI Will Transform the Global Economy. Let's Make Sure It Benefits Humanity

#70
post #5

Cynical view: without new regulation in the area of AI, it will reduce the value of labor in many domains and completely eliminate the need for it in many others. Profits will go to companies like OpenAI, unemployment will rise and people will be left to fend for themselves, and it's exactly what's going to happen.

Realistic view: Unemployment is actually at an all time low despite centuries of industrialization, automation, etc. AI technology is becoming a commodity at a rapid rate. OpenAI has some nice data moat but their tech is being copied left right and center and much of what they do has been replicated successfully by others; including some open source projects. I don't see OpenAI end up with all the profit here. AI is…

> Our own past is actually built on the dystopia of the industrial revolution where people had no rights and worked until they dropped dead. Most of us on this forum have jobs that most of those people would not have considered real work. Hence us procrastinating on hacker news instead of doing real work.

Part of that fight for workers' rights led directly to Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels inventing Communism. My history on that topic is a little vague, so it may be mere ignorance that I have no reason to think neither foresaw Stalin.

Likewise for capitalism, given what (little) I know of Adam Smith[0], I don't think he would've foreseen the Irish potato famine.

Smith and Marx both saw the world changing, the era of feudalism passing and fading, and the need for a new system to replace it. What we have now is neither what Smith nor what Marx advocated, though bits of each are still popular.

So… what's the AI version of the February Revolution? What's the AI version of the Great Depression (as in 1929–1939, I didn't mistype "Great Recession")?

I can very easily see ways that AI can bring about surveillance to make the Stasi blush. Those amateurs were drilling holes in walls and putting bugs in watering cans, today we carry trackers and bugs in our pockets voluntarily, and even when those are restricted, laser-microphones are simple enough to be high-school student projects, and WiFi can be modified to run as wall-penetrating radar that can do pose detection with enough resolution to give pulse and breathing rates.

The Paperclip Optimiser is basically the reductio ad absurdum of capitalism's disregard for environmental impact and externalities, except that software generally has bugs and pre-LLM AI generally hasn't shown the slightest sign of what people would consider "common sense", which makes it… my Latin is almost non-existent, "reductio non absurdum"? For what AI may do.

Even between those two examples, while it's certainly possible on paper for AI to give us all lives of luxury with minimal to no work required… from the point of view of the pre-industrial age, so did machine tools, so did the transition from alchemy to chemistry (despite chemical weapons), so did electricity and the internal combustion engine (despite the integrated CO2 emissions), so did atomic theory (despite the cold war)… and despite that, we still have 40 hour weeks.

So perhaps we'll all end up like aristocrats, or perhaps rents (literal and metaphorical) will go up to take the full value of whatever UBI[1] we are given.

[0] while I doubt politicians who quote him know any better than me, this cynicism may be borne from the last decade of British Prime Ministers…

[1] IMO, UBI is the only possible way for a sustainable society where AI is at the level of the smartest human, and in practice it's necessary well before AI is that capable — if a suitably embodied AI can do every task that an IQ 85 human can do, for a TCO/time less than your local minimum living wage[2], you've already got 15% of your population in a permanent economic trap.

I also think that UBI can only avoid a hyperinflation loop when the government distributing the UBI owns the means of production, because if they don't then the people who do own the AI will be tempted to raise prices to match the supply of money.

But there's always the temptation for a government to exclude some group, for one reason or another — "Oh, not them, they're foreign. Not them, they're criminals. Not them, they're too young. Not them, they're not smart enough. Not them, they're…", and it's very hard to make those exclusion lists smaller, as those on the less-money list wield less power, and also everyone else would have to lower their expenses if they undid it and shared their wealth more equally.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

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