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A math professor who objects to diversity statements

theatlantic.com

291–300 of 328 posts

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#291
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the people have had enough of experts.

What if experts ran day-to-day things, but the people could override the experts with a popular vote?

Sounds like Switzerland. I think it works well there. But the Swiss make a virtue of civic duty, and, IIUC, voting is frequent and somewhat compulsory, which I imagine tends to sustain an informed electorate.

If you don't have an informed electorate, then you're in danger of Brexit. I could paste my previous, but let's just say that sheep exist to be fleeced.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does rhyme in translation! And yes, there is a lot of hard work in taking a poem from another language, adapting it to not only not sound weird but also preserve as many of the little connotations of words, and then also making it rhyme. I admire a good translation as much as the original.

I'm curious about the rhyming in Russian poetry. Latin poetry doesn't rhyme (it's defined almost entirely by the patterning of long and short syllables; word stress exists in Latin but isn't relevant to poetic meter), and my Latin teacher explained this by reference to the fact that, Latin inflection being what it is, it would be extremely easy to rhyme. So easy, apparently, that nobody ever even tried. It is my impr…

>Do Russians feel that certain rhymes are "cheap" or otherwise unworthy?

Yes. Rhyming verbs with verbs is considered so basic only novice poets do it. I'm pretty sure there are some examples of such rhymes being used in classic poetry, but they are always used in extreme moderation. This is because they are very easy to construct. So easy in fact, they are mostly not used in children's limericks.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#293
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if experts ran day-to-day things, but the people could override the experts with a popular vote?

Sounds like Switzerland. I think it works well there. But the Swiss make a virtue of civic duty, and, IIUC, voting is frequent and somewhat compulsory, which I imagine tends to sustain an informed electorate. If you don't have an informed electorate, then you're in danger of Brexit. I could paste my previous, but let's just say that sheep exist to be fleeced.

I read quite a bit on Swiss democracy and the causality seems to be the other way around than politicians elsewhere always claim. Having lots of referenda on many levels (local, cantonal, federal) increases voter participation and makes people more informed and involved in politics.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#294
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is plain from the stories of fox news orphans that information diet can ruin good people, but I refuse to believe that people aren't different. I rebut your thesis thus: Oskar Schindler.

What do you think the main difference in people is? Biological? Because I'm saying environmental. I'm not sure why you reference Schindler. Certainly there is a distribution and I'm not claiming people are clones (I don't think you are either). So outliers aren't proof of anything, to either argument.

I think Dawkins' model of memes is helpful.

I'm going to use freighted language and examples for brevity. Readers, please be generous; I'm doing conservatism because it's the topic on hand, but this applies equally to progressivism.

A meme is the fundamental unit of transmissible culture - a catchy tune, laying napkins on the lunch table, the concept of punishment for wrongdoers. Memes are hosted in sentient minds.

A baby's first memes come from its parents. Subsequently, from family, babysitters, toys, telly, other children, books.

Memes are virulent to different degrees. An earworm is very infectious, but greeting people with "howdie doodie" is not particularly so.

A meme may fade away from a host in time, or be displaced by another meme, or last a long time in the host's mind.

Individuals are more or less susceptible to any given meme. This is influenced by the memes they have already. Some memes reinforce each other, and are often found together and transmitted together - for example, the meme for belief in god tends to cohabit with the meme for prayer, and we observe them being transmitted together.

The belief in a holy text tends to confer resistance to displacement on proximate memes such as the belief in a personal deity, and also tends to cause the host to expend effort on transmitting the meme complex. These meme complexes are self-sustaining.

We might expect meme complexes that include dogma to confer great tenacity on accompanying memes. Good luck convincing a fundie that the earth is old; their memes inoculate them against arguments.

So we have the fox news complex: initial infection is through mild right-wing memes, affect the host's behaviour, and increase susceptibility to secondary infections such as "election was stolen" or "9/11 was an inside job".

Someone with a very strong base set of memes, such as critical thinking or compassion, is much less susceptible to all the constituent memes of the fox complex. But someone with a weak base meme type - say, consumerism and apathy to books - is more easily infected.

I'm not aware of any research in this field. Do please improve my understanding!

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#295
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is plain from the stories of fox news orphans that information diet can ruin good people, but I refuse to believe that people aren't different. I rebut your thesis thus: Oskar Schindler.

What do you think the main difference in people is? Biological? Because I'm saying environmental. I'm not sure why you reference Schindler. Certainly there is a distribution and I'm not claiming people are clones (I don't think you are either). So outliers aren't proof of anything, to either argument.

Didn't want to pollute my effortpost, but: thanks for clarifying, and I agree that the Schindler outlier isn't a point.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#296
post #293
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like Switzerland. I think it works well there. But the Swiss make a virtue of civic duty, and, IIUC, voting is frequent and somewhat compulsory, which I imagine tends to sustain an informed electorate. If you don't have an informed electorate, then you're in danger of Brexit. I could paste my previous, but let's just say that sheep exist to be fleeced.

I read quite a bit on Swiss democracy and the causality seems to be the other way around than politicians elsewhere always claim. Having lots of referenda on many levels (local, cantonal, federal) increases voter participation and makes people more informed and involved in politics.

I agree - I'd call it a virtuous cycle. Although I suppose there's a time and effort cost.

But I dint see how, e.g. the UK, could get there from here. If we started having six referenda a year, I foresee the electorate largely switching off, leaving only the rabid and the pensioners. They don't need any more influence.

If we campaigned for this change, the campaign won't survive its first day. There's nothing in it for the legacy media, and it's not snappy enough to go viral.

Perhaps if we first moved to coalition-based politics, the way would open to direct democracy? I anyway like coalition-based politics on its own merits, which I hope would be:

- increased voter information and engagement - moving discourse from identity politics to issues - reduce the power of media interests - offer choices between broad manifestos and single-issue campaigns - enfranchise people not represented by the current dominant parties - capture voter preferences more accurately - reduce the cyclical nature of government - due to which, promote long-term thinking

Germany looks like a happy example; Israel looks like a problematic one. Israel suffers from an intolerant minority; from here, the tail looks to be wagging the dog on all the big issues, which is not a healthy dynamic. I think that's particular to that nation, though.

Coalition politics is still a very tough sell in countries with FPTP. We'd have to start by abolishing that.

Every time I think through a political issue, I arrive at the same conclusion: the most pressing issue for the UK and America is the abolition of FPTP. It's frustrating.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#297
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think the main difference in people is? Biological? Because I'm saying environmental. I'm not sure why you reference Schindler. Certainly there is a distribution and I'm not claiming people are clones (I don't think you are either). So outliers aren't proof of anything, to either argument.

I think Dawkins' model of memes is helpful. I'm going to use freighted language and examples for brevity. Readers, please be generous; I'm doing conservatism because it's the topic on hand, but this applies equally to progressivism. A meme is the fundamental unit of transmissible culture - a catchy tune, laying napkins on the lunch table, the concept of punishment for wrongdoers. Memes are hosted in sentient minds. A…

While I think at the broader level you are correct in mechanism I'm unconvinced that this is how it works in reality. There are too many examples of ideas spreading like wildfire far faster than people die out. Ideas that people hold with high passion. An example might be same-sex marriage where we see a larger rate of increase in support post legalization[0]. While younger generations have higher initial support, all generations increase in their support. 30% in the 00's and 60% today for the 55+ age group. That can't be due to the transfer of 35-55's because their baseline was only 40% in the 00's.

Remember that Dawkins use the analogy of a virus, not of an inheritable disease. Certainly you are correct in part as there are analogies to inheritable diseases with thought but it's also important to remember how quickly these mutate and that the mutation does not occur at inheritance like this is a game of telephone (in some way it is, but I hope that was clear). Moreso, things are mutating faster than ever. Religion is a great example of this, as it is a highly inheritable belief, yet the rate at which interpretations of a religious text has changed has changed much quicker than before. That's because, unsurprisingly, the interpretations are a reflection of ourselves and our times are changing faster than ever.

I don't know how old you are, but I do remember a time before Fox news and before the 24hr news cycle. They first took off around 9/11 and then gained many more during the financial crisis. I grew up in a Fox family and unlike my many liberal friends (which I am undoubtedly left), I will occasionally watch such shows like Bill O'Riley, Hanity, or Tucker. Why? Because they are well scripted programs that exploit the aforementioned principles. It helps me prepare for the nonsense my dad says during holidays. There's two points here which I'll rely on inference for as I'm already writing a lot. The first is about how they can rapidly change long held beliefs (e.g. Russians are the bad guys) and the second is about how this exercise let's me interrupt my dad (and uncle and BIL) and tell them exactly what they are about to say.

Everyone can be manipulated, including you and me. We're being constantly manipulated and not always by intentional forces (more often unintentionally). Dawkin's viral theory is a great place to start but like viruses you have to understand that there's a much more complex and intricate system involved that creates a large array of effects and you're not wrong that there are both genetic and environmental predisposition that makes a virus worse for some than others. But the same goes for the reproduction rate as well as mutation rate. The truth is that you can convince fundies that the Earth is old. I know this because I am an example. I know this because the rate of people like me is not just increasing, but accelerating. Apples fall a lot further from the tree than they used to, not because the laws of physics changed, but because the geography did. So either you believe that I'm (and others) are an exception to the rule or that there is an underlying mechanism that allows this to happen. The former does not have explanatory power for the increase, let alone the acceleration.

[0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/record-high-support-same...

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#298
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marx is the poster child for equality of outcome. Would be very interested to know where you heard he stood for equal opportunity. For example he is famous for saying "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" i.e. everyone works as hard as they can yet gets the same pay, because everyone's "need" is the same. Maybe adjusted by a few exceptions like family size and medical conditions, but…

That is literally just false. That quote comes from "Critique of the Gotha Programme", and what it really means is that people have unequal capabilities and unequal needs, so that what people should receive cannot be equal, instead, it should follow from needs and abilities. In that text, Marx explains it by saying: "one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Th…

This is deeply confusing. I said:

> because everyone's "need" is the same. Maybe adjusted by a few exceptions like family size

And the parts of Marx you quote say literally that exact thing: that people's needs vary only depending on whether they are married, how many children they have "and so on and so forth".

In other words Marx didn't recognize any connection between quantity or quality of work and what you get back. In a Marxist system your income is a function of family size. Indeed Marx didn't even recognize the concept of "work smarter not harder" because he believed everyone's work was exactly the same and the only difference was that big strong men could deliver more units of abstract "labor" per hour than a small weedy sick man.

Why do you think your quotes dispute what I said? Is it not perfect support for it?

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#299
post #110
post #41

I hope more people will pick up on the danger of this slippery slope. Part of the problem though is that we seem to have a tendency towards polar vortices of worldviews that suck in various issues that aren't even necessarily strongly connected, just to make them more effective in opposing the other side in an excessively concentrated way. So there is this tendency of social activists towards conformance and centrali…

Well, 'slippery slope' is a logical fallacy. The issue here, more precisely, is that without something to push against the US is inculcating ideas into the next generation of leaders that make ex-Soviets think "wait a second, this looks like home!". It isn't a slope, this is literally rebuilding the dangerous parts of authoritarian bureaucracy - people who can't think and are then given unearned and easily abusable p…

Hey, looking for a source for "about half the US economy is government spending these days". I've searched online for 2023 and I'm seeing a pretty okay 23% for government spending.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#300
post #290
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keynes has been discredited in recent years, it's odd that you think he's established anything. The Austrians were proven right and recent monetary policy reflects their view - you don't see much discussion of Keynes anymore. If you don't understand Keynes maybe that's why you don't realise that? To recap Keynes: his core idea was countercyclical monetary policy, i.e. to issue debt (print money) when times are bad an…

Thanks. My door is always open to Cunningham. If you're in a pedagogical mood, may I submit further misconceptions? I've always linked Keynes with the concept of national debt as a lever to pull, so I'm surprised that you mention printing money. AIUI, the Keynesian approach to the 2008 crisis would have been to issue debt in order to finance public spending, and that spending should be on social security and infrastr…

Digging and refilling holes is a metaphor, it's not meant literally. It's used in economics discussions to refer to any kind of economic activity that's taking place just for the sake of it.

Debt and money printing are intimately linked in our system, to the extent that they're nearly the same thing, which is why I used them interchangeably.

If you go back a few hundred years, money printing was pretty simple: the King wanted more money than he could raise through tax to pay for a war, so he'd debase the currency by reducing the quantity of gold in it. We don't use gold anymore so there's no theoretical limit on how much money can be created.

The creation of central banks introduced an indirection. Nowadays governments pretend to not print money. Instead they always "borrow" it. Sometimes this is actually legitimate borrowing, because the lender is someone domestic or foreign who has some surplus currency and wishes to earn interest on it. But very often the lender is the central bank. The central bank is described as independent, but in fact is just another arm of the government. It is granted special powers by law, and in many countries (e.g. the UK) the head is appointed by the government, answers to government and their salary is paid by taxes. Specifically the Central Bank is allowed to type a higher balance into its own computers, and banks are required to respect that balance. So the Treasury issues bonds, and the CB buys those bonds with newly "typed in" money, and this is just an obfuscated way for the government to print money in the end. They literally borrow from themselves.

You may wonder what happens to the interest payments, if the government is borrowing from itself. The answer is that the Treasury pays the central bank which keeps the interest payments for a while ... and then the Treasury takes them back!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/nov/09/bank-of-eng...

Repayments meanwhile simply disappear, the money is wired to the central bank and then deleted. This really puts into perspective how meaningless the whole charade really is.

> The former stimulates the economy at the roots, the latter generates immediate employment and long-term wealth.

Well, spending on welfare is an economic depressant, you're paying people to not work. The second part is on firmer ground: Keynesians argue that the government should spend abstractly on "infrastructure" during recessions to stimulate employment (in the construction sectors primarily), and this will create wealth.

But this argument also has great problems. It's not yet as discredited as counter-cyclical monetary policy. You'll see governments refer to this concept routinely. However it doesn't work, conceptually:

1. With only a few exceptions if an infrastructure project was actually worth it the private sector would want to be building it already (because it'd have clearly positive ROI). The exceptions are ones where you need eminent domain to seize large quantities of contiguous land, which pretty much means railways, airports and roads (but usually not roads these days). So either the government can simply take over private sector activity, which doesn't actually improve the economy (same stuff gets built), or it can invest in things with expected negative ROI.

2. Governments have a long track record of being very bad at calculating infrastructure ROI.

The problem is that there are very limited opportunities to build heavy transport projects these days. Look at the difficulties the UK has faced with HS2, Heathrow third runway etc. You have to demolish a lot of homes and people don't like it, and environmental law offers many opportunities for delay, so in practice by the time an infrastructure project gets off the ground the recession was already years in the rear view mirror.

Combine these things and infrastructure spending by governments, counter-cyclical or not, often ends up just being a waste of resources, or very ambiguous at best. The poster child for this problem right now is Belt & Road, although in the past EU spending was also famous (Spain's airports to nowhere, etc). An airport in a place with no demand i.e. not a city, is not literally digging a hole and filling it again, but it's somewhat similar from an economic perspective. You move a lot of earth and in the end it's not useful for much.

> I understand them to say of 2008:

That's not quite what they say about 2008 no lol :)

von Mises would have done nothing in 2008. Just let the recession proceed without interference until it reaches its natural end. Fundamentally those houses just weren't worth much and the debt was bad, no way to go back in time and fix that, so you just have to take the economic hit and let things shake out. It sucks but you can't unspill milk, better to focus on what went wrong and how to avoid a repeat.

The Austrian analysis of 2008 is that it was caused by government interference in the market, specifically, governments became very keen on the idea of everyone being able to own their own home. US law and regulation was changed to strongly incentivize banks to issue mortgages, in particular, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac started buying up pretty much any mortgage going even if it wasn't a good investment, but that didn't matter because the government was always willing to take them. Eventually it all came tumbling down. The fix would therefore be (a) stop government interference in the housing market, (b) forbid fractional reserve banking, which is why banks have to be bailed out when they fail.

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