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A math professor who objects to diversity statements

theatlantic.com

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Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are the one that is misinformed. Here is the DEI dashboard for my university. Please point out where “received food stamps growing up” and “first generation college student” are mentioned? Because, very obviously, they only care about ethnicity and gender. https://www.usmd.edu/IRIS/Dashboard/Diversity-and-Inclusion/...

This is specifically what I had in mind: https://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/notice-files/NOT-OD-20-0... Keep in mind that administrative programs like DEI offices are often unsupported virtue signaling. What matters is government and private funding, and there are absolutely opportunities in both arenas for support for “heterosexual white males” who come from unusual backgrounds. In your case, I’d suggest NSF gradua…

> administrative programs like DEI offices are often unsupported virtue signaling

That isn't what it looks like from the outside. The explanation circulating for how Claudine Gay ended up president of Harvard is that Harvard's DEI office was allowed to veto any candidate who wasn't diverse.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t assume a link between groups and ideas. Its something many people have observed. This is typically called “culture”. The thing about people and cultures is that they are comprised of many different, often changing, sometimes mutually conflicting ideas. This why ranking people and their cultures is an impossible, asinine idea.

Okay, let’s be concrete. What’s the “culture” of say Mexican Americans, and how would those differences make a team of Chinese software developers more effective? Once you actually unpack this diversity idea it unravels. You can’t have it both ways. If you posit that people are basically the same regardless of identity group, then your notion of “diversity” being anything other than neutral makes no sense. But if you…

I’m not interested in doing a rank ordering of racial groups.

You're setting up a false dichotomy: people are the same and diversity is neutral or some people are better and diversity is bad.

You seem to be assuming that its perfectly knowable which groups are “best”, and that we should therefore assemble teams strictly out of those people. My contention is that this is hubris and instead we should bring together lots of different types of people, then let them figure it out.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#263

So many people here are boosting the idea that mandatory DEI statements are like loyalty oaths of the 1950s, and implied they must be removed on that basis alone. California state universities have required their professors to sign loyalty oaths since the 1950s. The courts have long agreed this requirement is constitutional. Yes, this is exactly the sort of oath the Canadian criticizes, though it gets far less news t…

Your fourth paragraph doesn’t make logical sense.

I will try again.

I think a lot of people don't like DEI because they don't agree with the underlying premises. For example, DEI says there is a history of structural discrimination in higher education, that teachers must be aware that these biases exist, and that teachers must work to counter these biases. Diversity statements during hiring exist to see how well candidates understand those issues and have worked to improve the situation.

Some people do not like DEI because they want to believe they are in a meritocracy, and they are a professor simply because of personal effort.

Problem is, there's a lot of evidence supporting that DEI premise, and demonstrating the flaws in the meritocracy viewpoint.

Some do not like DEI because they believe accepting the systemic racism premise means accepting that most people are racist, while the evidence is that a system built on racism can continue to be racist even if no one involved is racist. We have generations to go before the wealth inequalities caused by deliberate racist government policies disappear. We have drug laws on the books which were created to persecute blacks more than whites. We have place names and statues meant to honor and remind everyone of white supremacists. These laws and statues were created by long dead racists and still enforced by non-racists.

There's an old quote: “If you have the law, hammer the law. If you have the facts, hammer the facts. If you have neither the law nor the facts, hammer the table”. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/07/04/legal-adage/

Since the premise is against the professor, instead attack the requirement to have a diversity statement. Liken it to Orwellian thoughtcrime and Soviet apparatchiks and anything else that might sound bad. It just has to have enough emotional power to get people riled up - it does not have have to be part of a larger, logically consistent framework.

Compare diversity statements to 1950s loyalty oaths, since those sound bad. It doesn't matter that 100,000s of people, including university professors are still required to sign loyalty oaths to get their job, because the point isn't to get rid of loyalty oaths, the point is to figure out some way to not sign a diversity statement.

Don't try to explain why some loyalty oaths are acceptable while others are not, because that's hard. Instead, just say that a political test is bad, and be "suspicious of an institutional requirement to do public good" .. while conveniently omitting how government funded higher education exists because of politics and how universities for centuries have said they contribute to the public good.

And even though this a diversity statement isn't actually oath, ignore how all sorts of other things are likened to loyalty oaths, like the Musk/Twitter example I gave earlier or even how the Pony Express riders swore an oath for their job.

Hammer the table and don't get caught in the weeds.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#264
post #41

I hope more people will pick up on the danger of this slippery slope. Part of the problem though is that we seem to have a tendency towards polar vortices of worldviews that suck in various issues that aren't even necessarily strongly connected, just to make them more effective in opposing the other side in an excessively concentrated way. So there is this tendency of social activists towards conformance and centrali…

I don't know. I recall listening to conservative thinkers discuss the left. I'm not talking about alt-right or hard-right bozos, I'm talking about Thomas Sowell and Bill Bennett. They consistently used words like "opponent" or "opposition" when describing fellow Americans with differing worldviews. Then they dive into the ideas.

While I don't recall, for example, President Obama or President Clinton saying things like "enemy" or "evil" when describing fellow citizens, we do have candidates and mainstream press using much harsher and more negative terms. I started watching a video from the self-avowed "left" discussing what the left ought to know about the right (pushed by the algorithm). The expert being interviewed was a professor of some sort, and in his very first answer he used the phrase "fight the enemy" and "understand the enemy" when describing how to deal with half the population of fellow citizens who disagreed with his ideology.

Hillary Clinton's memorable "basket of deplorables" is another. Don't get me wrong. Ten years ago, you wouldn't hear that kind of rhetoric from conservatives. But conservatism has been swallowed by alt-right Trump-style populism. I try to tune out the rants coming from the far right, so I imagine there are plenty of examples coming from awful sources. But this "enemy" rhetoric should never come out of the mouth of anyone respectable when speaking of their own countrymen or countrywomen.

I think I agree with you in that it is "not just a left problem" but there seems to have been a predominance of this "kill the enemy" rhetoric coming more from the left for many decades, than from the right. Part of the reason for this is that so many of the leftist playbooks like Rules for Radicals or Marxist strategy papers from Engels include "destroying the enemy" (encompassing eliminating morality, eliminating traditional family units, and fomenting violent revolt). Playbooks on the right, traditionally, have included understanding the rhetoric of the left, analyzing its ideas in terms of economics and personal freedom, and using debating tactics to "win" arguments.

I have to conclude that this is not just a "both sides" problem, but that one side spends a lot more of its energy on pushing toward the extremes.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let’s be concrete. What’s the “culture” of say Mexican Americans, and how would those differences make a team of Chinese software developers more effective? Once you actually unpack this diversity idea it unravels. You can’t have it both ways. If you posit that people are basically the same regardless of identity group, then your notion of “diversity” being anything other than neutral makes no sense. But if you…

I’m not interested in doing a rank ordering of racial groups. You're setting up a false dichotomy: people are the same and diversity is neutral or some people are better and diversity is bad. You seem to be assuming that its perfectly knowable which groups are “best”, and that we should therefore assemble teams strictly out of those people. My contention is that this is hubris and instead we should bring together lot…

We aren’t talking about “racial groups”—you shifted the conversation to “culture.”

So defend your premise. What is the “culture” of Mexican Americans (or any other group of your choosing) and how does that make a team of Chinese programmers better? That’s the central premise of “diversity”—that individuals from different groups are materially different—so give me one concrete example.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not interested in doing a rank ordering of racial groups. You're setting up a false dichotomy: people are the same and diversity is neutral or some people are better and diversity is bad. You seem to be assuming that its perfectly knowable which groups are “best”, and that we should therefore assemble teams strictly out of those people. My contention is that this is hubris and instead we should bring together lot…

We aren’t talking about “racial groups”—you shifted the conversation to “culture.” So defend your premise. What is the “culture” of Mexican Americans (or any other group of your choosing) and how does that make a team of Chinese programmers better? That’s the central premise of “diversity”—that individuals from different groups are materially different—so give me one concrete example.

Edit, sorry i think I misunderstood your post.

Are you asking about how a hypothetical non-Chinese person would improve an all Chinese team?

If so, I don’t presume to know. That would be up to the team members to find the ideas that best help them. This is the fundamental idea, put together different kinds of people and they’ll work out how to exhange cultural ideas in a way that works

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a white male from a very similar background. The thing that separates us from black and hispanic colleagues is that the white guys that are hiring automatically trust us 10x more than a black or hispanic candidate, regardless of where we came from, where we went to school, or how much money we had growing up. You might see a lot of diversity in PhD programs, but as soon as you step into a high paying professional…

> The thing that separates us from black and hispanic colleagues is that the white guys that are hiring automatically trust us 10x more than a black or hispanic candidate I just don’t think that’s true. I spend a lot of time around elite whites, and I think being a poor white is just about the worst thing in their eyes. God help you if you have a hick accent or something like that. I think they’re much more likely to…

> God help you if you have a hick accent or something like that. I think they’re much more likely to trust non-white people from the right social class.

That sounds right. Accent is often a (weak) signal of educational level.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Targeting class diversity naturally gets you racial diversity anyways. Not only that, the opposite doesn't. There are fewer black kids than white kids who grew up in affluent / middle class families, but not so few that you couldn't fill every diversity slot at an elite university with them. Which defeats the proper purpose of the program. You're supposed to be giving opportunities to people who didn't have them an…

> Targeting class diversity naturally gets you racial diversity anyways. Not always true. Look at the SHSAT. If you looked at the poor kids and took the top scores, it would be mostly Asians. The same thing applies for admissions to the Ivies. If they set aside 25% of their incoming class to be from the bottom 25% of the income distribution they'd fill most of those slots with Asians.

SHSAT is an NYC-only HS thing, right? Are there any other US cities or regions doing similar at HS admissions level (ages 12-14)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_High_Schools_Admis...

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#269

Look, if you don't want an echo chamber on this topic, maybe consider the point of diversity statements. I can't put it better than Stephen Jay Gould: "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." Consider that a diversity statement is a way to evaluate if the applicant has…

This is a very thoughtful and sensible reply, but it's going to get lost in the storm and that is a shame. Personally I've always thought that a lot of these issues boil down to intentional misreading or lack of understanding of things unsaid. As an example, a whole bunch of people, for some reason, took "Black Lives Matter" to mean "Only Black Lives Matter", as if that was said or as if that was the point. In your e…

Saying “black lives matter” is not inherently bad. Saying “black lives matter” while disagreeing with “all lives matter” is bad.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#270
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we seem to have a tendency towards polar vortices of worldviews First past the poll voting with primaries encourages (forces) politicians to go to the extremes. Ranked choice voting can reduce extremism. It’s also cheaper for tax payers as it eliminates expensive and wildly discriminatory/disenfranchising runoff elections.

That's the wrong way around, I don't think any conventional analysis of voting systems concludes that. FPTP forces parties to the center, because they have to be pre-formed coalitions before going to the polls. Single issue parties and fringe parties end up with nothing in FPTP. That's why the usual argument for PR is that it allows smaller (fringe/extreme) parties to exist and have influence, so represents minoritie…

FPTP essentially means that the actual government is operated as a time-limited dictatorship, since it's a winner-takes-all system. That means that once the elections are over, there is no need for actual politicking and bridge-building, the reigning champion or party can do whatever they like (according to some, even including killing their rivals /s).

In multi-parliamentary systems, the politicking does not end when the elections are over.

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