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OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

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Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#131

Post by WhereIsTheTruth »

teleforce wrote: post #118
countWSS wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, D will compete with GC languages that outclass it in ecosystem diversity and metaprogramming.(i.e. it will remain same niche language it was for decades). Having a huge runtime with GC doesn't seem appealing or efficient.

Fret not, Python just a fringe programming language for more than two decades, it only then become popular. If you have the right fundamentals success will eventually come your way.

Python is a interpreted language, and is both strongly/dynamic typed

D is a native strongly typed language

You don't make game engines in Python, and certainty not drivers, python devs fall back to C when they need performance, this should give you a hint

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#132

Post by eklavya »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #121
datadeft wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust is for people who stick around, can come over hurdles, can take in new concepts and see the overall benefits. It has a steep learning curve that pays off. For me there are three reasons why Rust is suitable for many usecases: - performance - safety - static binary compilation with targeting different cpu architecture After spending majority of my time with Python and Java in the last 10 years these are things i…

Performance isn’t a problem for Java for just about any business application most programmers will work on and, if it is, you can usually figure out how to optimize Java to hit your performance target. Safety is also not a problem in Java. And fat jars remain the single best way to deploy an application I’ve seen in just about any ecosystem (and nix is working out pretty well to bring their benefits to the rest of th…

Hopefully with Valhalla landing, memory footprint can also go down enough.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#133

Post by oaw-bct-ar-bamf »

nwallin wrote: post #77
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust is a really frustrating language for me: I understand the safety it provides but find the pain of actually using it makes it uncompelling. Plus, the Rewrite it in Rust movement is very off-putting

Rust is a frustrating language for me too. I never saw the need for it, really. I just stuck with the language constructs in C++ that makes it basically impossible for memory leaks/use after free/use outside of bounds to occur or if they do occur, explode loudly in debug environments. I haven't used new/delete in a personal project in like a decade; longer than Rust has been around. Now I'm working on a project where…

It might not help you today with your immediate problem but think about it this way:

You become the boss or responsible for some product. If you decide at the beginning to start off using Rust or rewrite some ancient, unmaintained library using Rust, then you prevent people like your cowboy developer to mess stuff up with this category of faults.

Either you would not hire him in the first place because he never came to grips with Rust so you only end up with developers on your team that understand and actively chose the tradeoffs that Rust offers.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#134

Post by [deleted] »

TheCondor wrote: post #10
Kranar wrote: post #7

D is such a sad case of how a good technical product can fail due to poor leadership and decision making. A language is more than just a compiler, it's also an ecosystem and a community. D's community is actually very welcoming but man, watch some of the DConf videos and Q&As on Youtube and it's cringe seeing key leaders talking down to people, or dismissing people's concerns, or just have this ego about themselves l…

Maybe they shouldn’t bring D back to life… drop the name, make a clean break and come up with a new one.

[deleted]

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#135

Post by fuzztester »

fsckboy wrote: post #124
eklavya wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am yet to see someone who can't make memory safety mistakes in C++. You might want to start a tutorial series on how to do that. If this skill can be taught that is, and isn't genetic.

i don't make memory safety errors in C or C++. i'd recommend embracing hungarian naming (if you call it apps-hungarian you've not embraced it fully enough, read older documentation) and be as rigid as rust about using it. i-, c-, p-, and Max are your best friends, don't declare one of those without declaring all the others that you will need. using hungarian, adopt naming conventions about Open/Close, Init/Finish, Al…

Interesting suggestions.

How do you "hook' a function, like you said about malloc,free, main and exit?

I guess it means intercept calls to it and do something additional to what it already does, something like Python decorators, but how do you do it in C or C++? I used C a lot (but not C++), but much earlier, and don't remember any method of hooking. atexit(), or something like it?

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#136

Post by Const-me »

resonious wrote: post #106
nwallin wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust is a frustrating language for me too. I never saw the need for it, really. I just stuck with the language constructs in C++ that makes it basically impossible for memory leaks/use after free/use outside of bounds to occur or if they do occur, explode loudly in debug environments. I haven't used new/delete in a personal project in like a decade; longer than Rust has been around. Now I'm working on a project where…

What kind of solution would you propose to folks like your boss? One positive aspect I see about "rewrite it in Rust" is that you can to some degree expect a random Rust project to not leak and crash and expose vulnerabilities quite as much as a random C++ project. It's silly, but "written in Rust" acts somewhat as a badge of safety and performance, whereas "written in Java" and "written in C++" each only carry one o…

> What kind of solution would you propose to folks like your boss?

Rewrite it in C#. It’s safer than Rust, because VM. Both standard and third party libraries are often way better. With modern versions of the language, GC allocations are avoidable if that’s what needed for performance reasons. C interop is equally simple.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#137

Post by tialaramex »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #68
satvikpendem wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I guess you don't have to write Rust? It seems like it doesn't solve any new problems for you so don't feel forced or pressured to use it (for any technology, really), and I say this as someone who really likes and uses Rust.

Yeah, what’s frustrating is (a) I wanted to like it; (b) it’s taking up a lot of the job market relative to other alternative languages I’d rather use; and (c) I like the language Graydon describes as “the language I wanted” https://graydon2.dreamwidth.org/307291.html

So, the reason Rust took the direction it did is that a lot of people want a language specifically like this, while there were already plenty of languages roughly in the ballpark Graydon wanted. I don't have a clear use for one of those languages, I might use it in some cases anyway, but I was compelled by Rust, it's more or less exactly what I needed.

I can have a proper type system like an ML, and touch the metal like C? Yes please.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#138

Post by tonyedgecombe »

xpressvideoz wrote: post #43
bsdpufferfish wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now you can have a project with someone else's opinion instead of Walter's.

Not someone else, but many others. I value projects governed by multiple people because one person cannot be an expert in every field, even though that person is smarter than most people.

There are two sides to that. Once you start running a project by committee you will find all sorts of odd features winding their way through the system. Politicking has as much influence as technical merit when it comes to new proposals.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#139

Post by Shorel »

pjmlp wrote: post #109

Unfortunelly this was bound to happen, after so much remarks on forking D throughout the years. Almost everything I liked in D when Andrei Alexandrescu's book came out in 2010, have made its way to C#, Java, C++. Yeah, maybe the implementation isn't as nice as in D, but that hardly matters when the implementation is available in some form, with much better tooling and library ecosystem. Too many years lost chasing th…

If that means the language will revive and all the work will not be lost, then it is fortunate, I would say.

I am using Python every day. And there are many things from D which I miss. Not to mention the performance.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#140

Post by Shorel »

datadeft wrote: post #116
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust is a really frustrating language for me: I understand the safety it provides but find the pain of actually using it makes it uncompelling. Plus, the Rewrite it in Rust movement is very off-putting

Rust is for people who stick around, can come over hurdles, can take in new concepts and see the overall benefits. It has a steep learning curve that pays off. For me there are three reasons why Rust is suitable for many usecases: - performance - safety - static binary compilation with targeting different cpu architecture After spending majority of my time with Python and Java in the last 10 years these are things i…

Performance and static binary compilation are available in 40-year-old languages, not forgetting Dlang, which is the central topic of this post.

The only reason left to really use Rust is safety.

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