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A math professor who objects to diversity statements

theatlantic.com

201–210 of 328 posts

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#201

It seems a bit silly to ask academics to enhance DEI initiatives. These are initiatives created by administrators to solve issues that administrators have caused. I also don’t like the surface level diversity metrics that schools target: reported race and gender. Of course these are historically important, but they’re also proxies for class which is a far more important type of diversity in my opinion. I see educatio…

> It seems a bit silly to ask academics to enhance DEI initiatives. These are initiatives created by administrators to solve issues that administrators have caused.

Some suspect they’ve gone too far and want to make sure they won’t be the only ones holding the bag. “Look, they signed the papers too and all agreed to participate, don’t blame just us”.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#202
post #105
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The first time some people will see or touch a book is when they get to elementary school. Those people are set up to fail in life, and anybody growing up from birth in an environment with no books is disadvantaged. That is the concern of the parents, there is nothing preventing anyone from reading if they are so inclined today. >We all exist within history, it’s not some bubble where what happened before your birth…

> Discrimination is not solved by discriminating harder. Except it absolutely has been. The civil rights movement was full of it. Look at the history that lead to forced busing. The efforts to correct schooling disparity had become such a quagmire that an even worse solution was enforced. How can we expect things to get better, when just ending discrimination led to the worst possible outcome that was attacked from b…

>to call it just "discriminating harder" isn't realistic.

Affirmative Action was struck down because it is racist.[1]

[1]: https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-affirmative-action-...

>Making systemic changes hurts and feels unfair, but it's far from the racism that motivated discrimination in our past.

It is unfair when the "answer" is just turning the discrimination gears in reverse. The way to end discrimination is to, unsurprisingly, end discrimination and treat everyone equally and fairly.

You know what I feel if I'm barred from something because I dared to be born to Japanese blood? I feel anger and resentment towards the fools who judged me for the color of my skin rather than the quality of my character, for refusing to see me as just another American.

Sincerely screw discrimination with a rusty spork and may it die in a fire. Absolutely noone deserves to be treated better or worse than another for reasons not concerning their character or capabilities.

>Where does this idea come from? I can recognize the disparities of the present. I can make actions to undo those. This isn't some fault I need to feel guilt for, it's just a reasonable outcome of understanding the past that lead to the current present, and a desire to change that present

Children are born with no crimes or sins to their name. Whatever their ancestors might have done, that is of absolutely no liable consequence to them. If someone seriously tells me to apologize and pay amends for Pearl Harbor or Nanking or whatever else before my time because I'm Japanese, I am going to sincerely tell them to fuck off and pound sand.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope more left-leaning people will pick up on the danger of this slippery slope. They already spent the last few decades objecting to Joseph McCarthy. Denunciation of his evil, and celebration of his downfall to the "Have you no shame?" speech, was an element of modern leftist canon. If they couldn't recognize what was happening every time they mentioned his name, they never will.

I think you are unfortunately correct, although I don't think it's accurate to frame this as an issue which only affects the left (though maybe that isn't what you meant). It's clear that humans simply aren't capable of learning to not go on witch hunts. Even with all of the time we spent teaching our children about Salem, Joseph McCarthy, and the like, it goes out of people's heads the instant they encounter a cause…

I don't think the behavior is something specific to the left. What is specific to the left is making opposition to witch hunts an explicit element of their catechism. Thus engaging in witch hunts reflects more poorly on them.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should a STEM professor be required to devote time to such activities? It doesn't seem to be their specialty, humanity does better when we are allowed to specialize, other people can do such things.

To try to argue it: Humanity does better when we don't marginalise people for dumb reasons such as membership in a visible minority group. Marginalising someone for a dumb reason is an individual decision, and it's a decision that a professor is frequently in a position to make. Arguably the higher-leverage parts of a professor's job are teaching classroomfuls students at once, advising graduate students, and "servic…

I think there is a pretty big jump between expecting a professor to treat all their students equally and with respect regardless of their gender/race/religion/etc and expecting them to to teach underprivleged children in foreign countries.

Everyone (well at least everyone reasonable) agrees with the former. The latter on the other hand feels like a totally different set of skills than what a professor does, and it feels unfair to expect that out of someone who doesn't have the inclination to do that (or to bring it in terms suitable to the HN crowd, the same way it is toxic when companies push good engineers into management against their will or as a requirement in order to advance)

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#205

The title says he objects to diversity, but the article states that "it isn’t diversity to which he objects". The professor isn't consistent either. Yes, DEI is a sort of agreement between you and your current society. And yes, you will be punished (or forced out) if you don't agree to it. That doesn't mean the society is selecting conformists, who would sign anything giving them profits. It means the society wants p…

> The title says he objects to diversity I don't know if the title has been updated in the last 15 minutes, but the title currently says "A math professor who objects to diversity statements ". Not "to diversity".

As per article, he objects to signing "water is wet". Does it make the title correct?

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we seem to have a tendency towards polar vortices of worldviews First past the poll voting with primaries encourages (forces) politicians to go to the extremes. Ranked choice voting can reduce extremism. It’s also cheaper for tax payers as it eliminates expensive and wildly discriminatory/disenfranchising runoff elections.

Many Americans already don't understand progressive tax as a concept. How can we realistically expect them to understand ranked choice voting?

1) Americans don't understand progressive tax because they are constantly being bombarded with information as to what it means. If you watch Fox news daily you will have a misunderstanding on the matter. Take care to make generalizations when you see things like knowledge differences divided between party lines. People aren't different, but the information they get is.

2) Many social choice experts advocate for cardinal systems over ordinal. Approval is quite popular due to its simplicity and effectiveness while Star or Score improve on alignment but all of these are substantially better than the current system. Cardinal has the advantage in the tabulation being that you do not need multiple elections (exception of Star, which is strictly 2 elections), and you can do a parallelized reduce sum tabulation. So algorithmically it is easy to understand (sum columns/candidates, pick largest total: argmax(column sum)). That has implications for transparency and election security. Some people are convinced these methods are harder for people to understand but I'd refer you back to point 1 and add that we're also very used to these systems as we're currently using a cardinal voting system on HN.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#207
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not taking crazy pills. This comment perfectly tracks my thoughts upon confronting similar a couple years ago. The toughest part was that I didn’t know the words to name or describe it. I’ll +1 someone else’s recommendation of Tim Urban’s book “What’s Our Problem” - he dove into this rabbit hole and explained what he found, and it’s super approachable. For a deeper dive, Bill Ackman very publicly sharing his…

Christopher Rufo is an actual, openly and loudly, full on grifter. He has literally admitted to inventing the critical race theory concept and conflict. As in, truly made it up out of thin air by combining vague trends with a loosely related legal term and seeding it to the Tuckers of the world. These are not the kinds of people anyone should be listening to about "things happening in the world".

Yes, Rufo is an activist, and he is transparent about his intentions and strategies.

I have a JD and passed the bar. I know that a “protected class” is for all people and all manifestations of a trait, not specific identity groups.

It was plain to me that DEI, HR, and Legal teams were not explaining the law, but rather using their position as experts-with power and good intentions-as a pretext to conduct activism through ambiguity and deniability that look virtuous to them and Orwellian to me. And that it was working, because my managers and teammates were positively convinced that “protected class” means exclusively “minority.”

I went through HR training that said “only a manager can discriminate under the law - anyone can engage in harassment.” This is insane as a statement of law, because harassment _is_ discrimination [1]. But it makes sense when they’re trying to get unwilling ICs to endure pervasive “anti-racist” discrimination that isn’t intended as harassment. Flag the misstatement to Legal and it’s “huh, we don’t know how that happened, we’ll look into it.” (Read: we already signed off on the risks of this wording.) Rinse and repeat every training cycle, where it’s a full rewrite of the module with no continuity.

One of my first questions in trying to make sense of seemingly-insane trainings was “wait, is this that ‘CRT’ thing I heard about that everyone says is just a right-wing bogeyman that doesn’t actually exist?”

And it sure is easier to just call it “CRT” and laugh it off than to argue whether it’s even a thing that happened.

If the corporate activists were transparent like Rufo, they’d say “hey, we think discrimination laws are behind the times, and we can’t just wait around for them to change. We need to combat demographic disparities by shifting our culture in hiring and conflict resolution. Here’s how we expect you to promote that, and we’re prepared to indemnify you and defend these values in court.” I expect many people would get behind that, and I would truly respect their honesty in it.

Instead they try to have it both ways, and polarize people with irreconcilable values into each thinking the company has their back.

If you’re on the receiving end of a discrimination suit and try to say you were following company policy, the lawyers will hang you out to dry: “That wasn’t company policy, it was a peer exercise with no managerial oversight or involvement. That wasn’t a required training, it just had an attendance goal (of 90%) and your manager wasn’t authorized in pushing it. As a ‘safe space,’ it wasn’t even recorded for us to know what went on there. It was led by an external contractor who is obviously not an agent of the company. Of course cis white men are a protected class, and anyone who treats them differently is illegally discriminating.”

[1] “Harassment is a form of employment discrimination” https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Targeting class diversity naturally gets you racial diversity anyways. Not only that, the opposite doesn't. There are fewer black kids than white kids who grew up in affluent / middle class families, but not so few that you couldn't fill every diversity slot at an elite university with them. Which defeats the proper purpose of the program. You're supposed to be giving opportunities to people who didn't have them an…

> Targeting class diversity naturally gets you racial diversity anyways. Not always true. Look at the SHSAT. If you looked at the poor kids and took the top scores, it would be mostly Asians. The same thing applies for admissions to the Ivies. If they set aside 25% of their incoming class to be from the bottom 25% of the income distribution they'd fill most of those slots with Asians.

> Not always true. Look at the SHSAT. If you looked at the poor kids and took the top scores, it would be mostly Asians.

That's assuming you're filling these slots solely on the basis of highest score and not, for example, setting a threshold score below which you might not expect those students to be able to succeed in that environment and then choosing from the remainder by lottery.

After all, if the point is diversity, "students with near-perfect standardized test scores" might not be the most heterogeneous group. And the kids with the near-perfect scores should be able to get in without consideration of their income level.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#209

[flagged]

It's a bit more nuanced. Before, a lot of people on a one-to-one told me how BS most of DEI is. But now, folks feel a bit more free to speak; complain against DEI even in public places or in front of others. It feels like Soviet Union in the 60s vs in '89 where you knew the wall was falling sooner rather than later.

Makes sense. I'm definitely not complaining about this turn of events.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#210
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of my Catholic childhood. In church we regularly had to say prayers and creeds, which involved everyone confessing to having sinned, and reaffirming the absurdities we allegedly believed in.

Yes, DEI is a religion in practice, even if not in name. It should remind you of Christianity as well. It has - Sinners, including "original sin," and a need for confession and atonement for these sins - Various sacrificial lambs, saints, martyrs, etc. - Holy times (days, weeks, months) and celebrations, remembrances of past wrongdoing, etc. In many ways it's an intensely negative religion. It has a concept of _colle…

The trick is to have some non-white holy DNA in your family tree, reverse nurnberg style.
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