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OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

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Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#61

Post by satvikpendem »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #53
kstrauser wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust pissed me off until I stopped fighting it. When I finally gave up and started doing things its way, it became a lot more fun. And `cargo clippy` is flat-out helpful for learning Rust’s idioms. While I’m not yet out to rewrite all the things in Rust, I understand the appeal of rebooting archaeological projects with a modern approach.

The thing is, I just don’t want to write programs the way Rust wants me to. Among statically typed languages, Java is the closest to what I want to use but my true love is Common Lisp. With the arrival of Coalton, I can get the best of both worlds: a type system with nice properties for the rare program that would benefit from them and CL for the majority of programs.

Then I guess you don't have to write Rust? It seems like it doesn't solve any new problems for you so don't feel forced or pressured to use it (for any technology, really), and I say this as someone who really likes and uses Rust.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#62

Post by nextaccountic »

LorenDB wrote: post #15
TillE wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fundamental problem with D is much simpler than that, it's the technical context. D is a better C++, but it's not better enough to escape the gravitational pull of C++. Rust is sufficiently compelling, with its focus on memory safety.

Meanwhile Rust is noncompelling due to its syntax. It made a bunch of weird design choices (like putting class methods in separate `impl` blocks) that have ruined my chances of trying to use it for any personal projects.

impl blocks are actually more powerful than class methods because if you have a generic struct or enum MyType, you can have a method for all MyType or for just MyType

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#64

Post by tines »

LorenDB wrote: post #15
TillE wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fundamental problem with D is much simpler than that, it's the technical context. D is a better C++, but it's not better enough to escape the gravitational pull of C++. Rust is sufficiently compelling, with its focus on memory safety.

Meanwhile Rust is noncompelling due to its syntax. It made a bunch of weird design choices (like putting class methods in separate `impl` blocks) that have ruined my chances of trying to use it for any personal projects.

Putting class methods in separate impl blocks is actually objectively better; it allows you to define new methods on types that you didn't write, like typeclasses in Haskell.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#65

Post by dragonfax »

TheCondor wrote: post #10
Kranar wrote: post #7

D is such a sad case of how a good technical product can fail due to poor leadership and decision making. A language is more than just a compiler, it's also an ecosystem and a community. D's community is actually very welcoming but man, watch some of the DConf videos and Q&As on Youtube and it's cringe seeing key leaders talking down to people, or dismissing people's concerns, or just have this ego about themselves l…

Maybe they shouldn’t bring D back to life… drop the name, make a clean break and come up with a new one.

Do

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#66

Post by bachmeier »

systems wrote: post #12

who is exactly behind this, and how much support is he getting from the d community ??? D is a very small community , so this seem to be a big bet

The person that wrote the post is Adam Ruppe. He's a very prolific D programmer, best known for these libraries https://github.com/adamdruppe/arsd and for publishing a book on the language.

It's too early to judge how much support there will be. I don't expect current users to split into camps though. My prediction is that the relationship will end up being similar to Ubuntu vs Debian. An example is string interpolation. Walter wants to stick to his own proposal, which nobody else likes, while Adam's already implemented his proposal in OpenD.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#67

Post by jimbob45 »

dataflow wrote: post #50
TillE wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fundamental problem with D is much simpler than that, it's the technical context. D is a better C++, but it's not better enough to escape the gravitational pull of C++. Rust is sufficiently compelling, with its focus on memory safety.

I keep saying this and having the exact same argument with everyone every single time I mention it (and I'm sure here we'll go again), but D's fundamental problem was its GC. Its mere presence colors the code that uses it, and once your dependencies use the GC, you have no recourse. It's impossible to abstract away. I fail to see how such a language could ever substitute for C++.

I don’t disagree. Add in the GC and you’re competing with C#, which is an unwinnable battle considering the resources of MS. Dump the GC and you’re competing in a much more winnable battle with C++, Rust, and that’s it (when the decision was made anyway).

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#68

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

satvikpendem wrote: post #61
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, I just don’t want to write programs the way Rust wants me to. Among statically typed languages, Java is the closest to what I want to use but my true love is Common Lisp. With the arrival of Coalton, I can get the best of both worlds: a type system with nice properties for the rare program that would benefit from them and CL for the majority of programs.

Then I guess you don't have to write Rust? It seems like it doesn't solve any new problems for you so don't feel forced or pressured to use it (for any technology, really), and I say this as someone who really likes and uses Rust.

Yeah, what’s frustrating is (a) I wanted to like it; (b) it’s taking up a lot of the job market relative to other alternative languages I’d rather use; and (c) I like the language Graydon describes as “the language I wanted” https://graydon2.dreamwidth.org/307291.html

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#69

Post by CJefferson »

dataflow wrote: post #50
TillE wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fundamental problem with D is much simpler than that, it's the technical context. D is a better C++, but it's not better enough to escape the gravitational pull of C++. Rust is sufficiently compelling, with its focus on memory safety.

I keep saying this and having the exact same argument with everyone every single time I mention it (and I'm sure here we'll go again), but D's fundamental problem was its GC. Its mere presence colors the code that uses it, and once your dependencies use the GC, you have no recourse. It's impossible to abstract away. I fail to see how such a language could ever substitute for C++.

I think the worst thing was making GC optional. I’ve never seen any language end up with good optional GC.

Re: OpenD, a D language fork that is open to your contributions

#70

Post by [deleted] »

bachmeier wrote: post #66
systems wrote: post #12

who is exactly behind this, and how much support is he getting from the d community ??? D is a very small community , so this seem to be a big bet

The person that wrote the post is Adam Ruppe. He's a very prolific D programmer, best known for these libraries https://github.com/adamdruppe/arsd and for publishing a book on the language. It's too early to judge how much support there will be. I don't expect current users to split into camps though. My prediction is that the relationship will end up being similar to Ubuntu vs Debian. An example is string interpolat…

[deleted]
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