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A math professor who objects to diversity statements

theatlantic.com

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Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#151

Post by SoftTalker »

genman wrote: post #40
shermantanktop wrote: post #27

This is a well established pattern: someone who grew up in the Soviet Union and had traumatic experiences with ideological conformity now reacts to something happening in the US with a ferocity of feeling that ends up comparing that thing to pogroms, forced collectivization and ideological purges. Is it warranted? Depends what they are saying, and their points should stand on their own. But they are larded with Cassa…

It was a norm in Soviet Union that to advance academically you had to produce work that somehow endorsed communism. It was very good if you were able to put some citations of Lenin or Marx into your completely unrelated work at minimum or better to produce complete body of work that somehow academically promoted communism even when you worked as mathematician. Of course many people understood that it is all bullshit…

> Of course many people understood that it is all bullshit but had to play along to have a meaningful academic career.

And this is exactly the case with Academic DEI statements. You just have to say the correct things, and a checkbox is checked and you can get your grant or your job or your tenure. Nothing else really changes.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#152

Post by ac130kz »

throwaway288112 wrote: post #89

Look, if you don't want an echo chamber on this topic, maybe consider the point of diversity statements. I can't put it better than Stephen Jay Gould: "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." Consider that a diversity statement is a way to evaluate if the applicant has…

These days, with the omnipresence of internet, most people have access to most books/courses/materials/tutorials/etc if they want to, also mathematical abilities develop pretty early in life. You want to add diversity? Base it on egalitarianism as well. And by the way most top tier universities already cover all the tuition fees without a diversity statement involved, so if a person is truly a mastermind, there's no way they are left out.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#153

Post by boolemancer »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #127
exogeny wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very thoughtful and sensible reply, but it's going to get lost in the storm and that is a shame. Personally I've always thought that a lot of these issues boil down to intentional misreading or lack of understanding of things unsaid. As an example, a whole bunch of people, for some reason, took "Black Lives Matter" to mean "Only Black Lives Matter", as if that was said or as if that was the point. In your e…

> As an example, a whole bunch of people, for some reason, took "Black Lives Matter" to mean "Only Black Lives Matter", as if that was said or as if that was the point. That was never my issue, or the issue of anyone I encountered. My issue (and those other people's issue) was the implicit bad-faith assumption that we didn't already think black lives mattered, and needed to be scolded about it. Such rhetoric is needl…

Why would you feel that anybody was personally scolding you by saying "black lives matter" if you already believed that black lives matter?

Clearly, plenty of people, through both their actions and their words, have made it very clear that they don't believe that black lives matter, and the movement was always aimed squarely at them.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#154

Post by zephrx1111 »

bglazer wrote: post #57
zephrx1111 wrote: post #28

Diversity is based on the belief that some group‘s behavior patterns are fitting better with the environment, even temporarily and locally. But DEI is denying this difference, expecting any behavioral pattern should deserve the same result. They can’t even reach a logic consistency.

No, you’re wrong. Belief in “diversity” is the belief that many different groups/identities can contribute, and that none are strictly “best”. DEI is an effort to include more groups in institutions, in order to benefit from the mixing of ideas that results.

I'm not sure how I was wrong.

Diversity claims groups are different, hence there must be some different outcomes, due to their different culture, language, mindset, sex, etc. If the outcomes are the same, then the only difference will be just color. I'm sure it is not what you want.

Then, given the expected outcomes will be different, why DEI is asking for equity of outcomes?

A bag has 100 balls: 90 are white and 10 are black. Please randomly grab 10, and send to to university, or jail. In this the only way you can get your DEI equity.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#157

Post by subjectsigma »

exogeny wrote: post #103
throwaway288112 wrote: post #89

Look, if you don't want an echo chamber on this topic, maybe consider the point of diversity statements. I can't put it better than Stephen Jay Gould: "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." Consider that a diversity statement is a way to evaluate if the applicant has…

This is a very thoughtful and sensible reply, but it's going to get lost in the storm and that is a shame. Personally I've always thought that a lot of these issues boil down to intentional misreading or lack of understanding of things unsaid. As an example, a whole bunch of people, for some reason, took "Black Lives Matter" to mean "Only Black Lives Matter", as if that was said or as if that was the point. In your e…

I think I know why people interpreted “Black Lives Matter” as “Only Black Lives Matter,” and it was the way BLM supporters reacted to the slogan “All Lives Matter.”

I’m not saying either one is right or wrong. I’m saying - if you imagine yourself as someone saying “All Lives Matter” and the response you get back is “No, you can’t say that, you can only say ‘Black Lives Matter’”… not a big logical leap to make

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#158

Post by amluto »

danielvf wrote: post #53
fsckboy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am familiar with diversity statements by institutions, but what would a diversity statement from an applicant consist of, what would be expected? for example, declared alignment with the institution? or statements about one's own "diversity"? just trying to get a grasp.

Here's a scoring guide to "how good" a statement is, along with examples. https://ofew.berkeley.edu/recruitment/contributions-diversit...

I find this distressing. The “Track Record in Advancing Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging” and “Plans for Advancing Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging” seem like they’re trying to hire specifically for a DEI role. Is a math professor supposed to be hired based on their math research or based on the DEI workshops they’ve led?

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#159

Post by edmundsauto »

ilaksh wrote: post #41

I hope more people will pick up on the danger of this slippery slope. Part of the problem though is that we seem to have a tendency towards polar vortices of worldviews that suck in various issues that aren't even necessarily strongly connected, just to make them more effective in opposing the other side in an excessively concentrated way. So there is this tendency of social activists towards conformance and centrali…

> So I have to conclude that this is not just a left problem

In America, the conservative movement drove fealty to ideals and invented cancel culture. It wasn’t leftists insisting our money trust god or that small children pledge allegiance.

The left adopted it because people were committing suicide because of the systematic hate and discrimination.

The religious right wing invented it because their feelings were hurt if everyone didn’t believe in their same sky fairy and preferred economic religion.

Re: A math professor who objects to diversity statements

#160

Post by cjohnson318 »

Jensson wrote: post #150
cjohnson318 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a white male from a very similar background. The thing that separates us from black and hispanic colleagues is that the white guys that are hiring automatically trust us 10x more than a black or hispanic candidate, regardless of where we came from, where we went to school, or how much money we had growing up. You might see a lot of diversity in PhD programs, but as soon as you step into a high paying professional…

> the white guys that are hiring automatically trust us 10x more than a black or hispanic candidate Doesn't help when you get filtered out from attending college. Poor white men is the least represented group at colleges among all race/class/gender combinations, it isn't a privilege.

> Doesn't help when you get filtered out from attending college.

Please provide evidence of high application rates for underprivileged white males and then abnormally low acceptance rates to support your claim of white men being turned away at the door.

My experience was that college was more than happy to sign me up for financial aid, due to my family's lower income, and then student loans, to boot. They don't even care what you major in. Since you can't get out of the debt, it's just cashflow from their perspective.

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