Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#41

Post by josefresco » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 12:53 PM UTC

dejb wrote: post #40

pmorici wrote: post #22

Isn't this akin to advocating for the legalization of steroids only here were talking about a thinking muscle instead of a moving one?

No because unlike sport, which is artificial competition for entertainment, mental work is real productive work that benefits society. Increasing our mental abilities can make the the world a better place, the same cannot be said of steriods and sporting ability. Another difference is that steriods at the level taken by athletes use is demonstrably harmfull for their health, this is not necessarily true for mental bo…

"which is artificial competition for entertainment, mental work is real productive work that benefits society"

Uhhh, professional sport isn't 'real' work? I would would say without a doubt every single processional athlete probably works much harder then your typical white collar worker (due to the fact that they are not typical athletes) As far as "productive" goes, each pro organization is staffed with hundreds of people all doing 'productive' work which is possible because of the athletes that work for the corporation.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#42

Post by helveticaman » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 1:07 PM UTC

car wrote: post #33

mahipal wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Pharmacology http://www.modafinil.com/ Sure, there's no long-term studies, but we can extrapolate from the receptors that it acts on and its relatively minor side effects that it wouldn't be too bad to take it over a long term. At least for it's main indication, ADHD, it's far better than the alternatives of Ritalin or Adderall.

You are wrong. Modafinil's only indication is narcolepsy.

I have been prescribed Modafinil for Adult ADD.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#43

Post by jaxn » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 1:13 PM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #23

jamesbritt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Legal mind-enhancing drugs are a great danger to society. They will put everyone in the position where they have to take those drugs, or risk perpetual unemployment." Replace "drugs" with "education", and ask what should be done. Ban learning?

By contrast to drugs, "education" has thousands of years to prove it's long-term medical safety. Different drugs have proven to have all kinds of nasty side-effects to a point where it is normal to hold them all suspect by default.

Sometimes you have to take risks. There is some question as to whether cell phones have long term medical risks, but I bet you use a cell phone (for increased productivity no less).

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#44

Post by cjenkins » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 1:32 PM UTC

Are use of drugs like these prevalent in the startup world? I can imagine it has to be pretty tempting. Plus there's the added incentive that you already (should?) have pretty productive people and stacking another multiplier on top of their productivity would be hard to turn down.

Or is it the case that working in a startup is already motivating enough that there wouldn't really be much of an additional benefit?

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#45

Post by silentbicycle » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 1:36 PM UTC

kragen wrote: post #32

mynameishere wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caffeine has this other advantage: That certain beverages that contain it are culinarily exquisite. Same with ethanol (praise god).

Modafinil is effective in small enough doses that you could put it into just about any beverage you like, just like amphetamine, piracetam, and so on, and unlike ethanol. You may enjoy quaffing toxic organic solvents like ethanol, but I don't particularly fancy the idea myself.

You can't really put piracetam in "just about any beverage", both because of the taste and the sheer quantity. That would be like trying to hide a tablespoon of ground-up mothballs in your orange juice. (Aniracetam or oxiracetam, maybe.)

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#46

Post by nazgulnarsil » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 2:10 PM UTC

wheels wrote: post #39

mdasen wrote: post #7

At a point, this just goes to the competitive nature of our society. From a moral standpoint, if who we are is a product of our environment and our genetics, then we ourselves aren't anything that isn't predefined. Someone who is lazy is a product of their genes and environment in the same way that someone with a disease is the product of their environment and genes. So, what makes asthma (which I have) something tha…

As for free will, Einstein was particularly offended by some of the consequences of quantum mechanics which seemed to remove determinism from the most elementary of particle interactions. If fundamental interactions are in fact deterministic at this point, we haven't learned how to predict their consequences, which has led to the many interpretations of quantum mechanics. Einstein was fond of "hidden variables" since…

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/thou-art-physic.html

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/righting-a-wron.html

free will is probably a further side effect of the same biological processes that gave rise to what we view as self-awareness: recursive thinking.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#47

Post by nazgulnarsil » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 2:12 PM UTC

randomwalker wrote: post #5

I find it disturbing that this is even controversial. First, the notion that there is an optimal "healthy" state is make-believe. We all get old and die, so in a sense we are all terminally ill. We should have a right to improve our minds and bodies as long as there is room for improvement. More to the point, brain types fall on a spectrum. ADHD is just one extreme. Equating "median" with "healthy" is a fallacy. Cons…

conflating "median" and "correct" is the natural result f people being steeped in collectivist ideology and politics their whole life. in a true democracy you have social constructivism.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#48

Post by dejb » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 2:44 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #41

dejb wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No because unlike sport, which is artificial competition for entertainment, mental work is real productive work that benefits society. Increasing our mental abilities can make the the world a better place, the same cannot be said of steriods and sporting ability. Another difference is that steriods at the level taken by athletes use is demonstrably harmfull for their health, this is not necessarily true for mental bo…

"which is artificial competition for entertainment, mental work is real productive work that benefits society" Uhhh, professional sport isn't 'real' work? I would would say without a doubt every single processional athlete probably works much harder then your typical white collar worker (due to the fact that they are not typical athletes) As far as "productive" goes, each pro organization is staffed with hundreds of…

I have nothing against professional athletes. In fact I admire them a lot. But let's face it, sports is a zero sum game from the perspective of skill level. What real difference would it make to the world if all the world's athletes were 10% less fast/strong/coordinated etc...? Would people still be interested and entertained by sports - of course they would. In watching sports people like to see a contest of the best but the absolute standard of the best doesn't really influence that value. This is even more the case in sports participation. People like to feel they can compete at a particular level but it is all relative.

Now contrast this with mental abilities. If people can solve medical problems then they can prevent deaths and enhance health. If they can solve technical problems they can make peoples lives easier and allow them to achieve more. In general mental skills can make the world a better place. Not a zero sum game.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#49

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 3:28 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #41

dejb wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No because unlike sport, which is artificial competition for entertainment, mental work is real productive work that benefits society. Increasing our mental abilities can make the the world a better place, the same cannot be said of steriods and sporting ability. Another difference is that steriods at the level taken by athletes use is demonstrably harmfull for their health, this is not necessarily true for mental bo…

"which is artificial competition for entertainment, mental work is real productive work that benefits society" Uhhh, professional sport isn't 'real' work? I would would say without a doubt every single processional athlete probably works much harder then your typical white collar worker (due to the fact that they are not typical athletes) As far as "productive" goes, each pro organization is staffed with hundreds of…

Sports is artificial competution under arbitrary rules. There is no benefit to people violating the rules. Using steroids in sports is like riding a bike in the marathon.

In contrast, regular "productive" work is not trying to be entertaining, it has other goals (e.g. moving packages from one place to another). If I ride my bicycle while delivering packages, more packages get delivered.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#50

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 4:17 PM UTC

jamesbritt wrote: post #17

DenisM wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not everything on earth should be done by the private businesses. This one can be financed by the public, knd of like the nuclear bomb and stuff. Legal mind-enhancing drugs are a great danger to society. They will put everyone in the position where they have to take those drugs, or risk perpetual unemployment. If side effects surface decades later they will cripple entire population of the country because no on…

"Legal mind-enhancing drugs are a great danger to society. They will put everyone in the position where they have to take those drugs, or risk perpetual unemployment." Replace "drugs" with "education", and ask what should be done. Ban learning?

[deleted]