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Inner Speech

plato.stanford.edu

121–130 of 141 posts

Re: Inner Speech

#121
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. This video was interesting to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNQyubd9ARc&t=60s in it you are asked to shout "I like crickets" and then to whisper "I like crickets" again, in your mind and not out loud. The presenter then claims, "The volume is the same because you can't change the volume of the voice in your head, only the tone and pitch." My experience of trying this is that I can produce the phrase…

> The presenter then claims, "The volume is the same because you can't change the volume of the voice in your head, only the tone and pitch." Very interesting, and not at all true for me. I can imagine shouting "I like crickets" with a near ear-splitting level of volume, tantamount to the force of a storm with a shockwave. Imagine an anime scene where a character is radiating power, arms raised into the air, like Sau…

I pretty much share the same capacities which you’ve described. Regarding the last part, about the inner voice not defaulting to verbal projections, when I reflect about what form such pattern takes, I can only interpret it as sort of “semantic impulses”. Explaining: we know very well the feeling of hunger (impulse to eat), but we can’t emulate it at will, because it’s tied to physiological state. The scope of impulses, however, is much broader than those extreme feelings, such as sadness, happiness, etc. There’s an infinite number of feelings, and new ones are created upon experiencing novel situations, and they’re unique to you. Those finer feelings, differently from the physiologically-bounded ones, you can summon upon recalling mental imagery which are anchored with the feelings and thus able to trigger them. Most people know cringe, nostalgia, etc, which comes when recalling past events; those, again are very crude and broad impulses. If we make an analogy with colors, strong (common) feelings are like primary hues, sitting at the extremes of luminance and saturation. Finer feelings are everything else and all the possible mixtures/overlays. Thus, I can conceive my mind to be a multidimensional canvas, and as the painter I can mix and match whatever colors I have at my disposal to conjure a complex sensation which progresses over time, and that I can make use of to manifest ideas, arguments, scenes, whatever I like. In this context, there’s absolutely no active verbalization (perhaps I need to repeat some phrase mentally to invoke the color I want, but this is just for the lookup process, what I am interested in is the yield, i.e what it will trigger). Then, when I’m satisfied with the general piece, and since it’s so unstable by nature, the finishing process involves piecing together the words which will index it. If it’s something of material use in the physical reality then it becomes a note. Of course I could use any other kind of graphics as the index, it’s just that language provides all these shared, easy to remember, stereo (picture and sound), malleable, composable symbols called the alphabet. It’s the most basic yet the most powerful tool we have at our disposal. The cool thing is that all of the experience of crafting these mental pieces has also increased my repertoire/palette, beyond the final product. Sort like all products can also be ingredients, or phrased differently: ending points become starting points for new explorations.

Re: Inner Speech

#122
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Chinese, if you just put 'big' and 'small' together, you get 'size', and if you just put 'big' and 'not big' together, it means 'Is it big?'. By the same token, juxtaposed memories are questions or suggestions. I think it's the logic before logic.

That's a really interesting tidbit about Chinese. Can't think of anything similar in any language I know, though. Does remind me of those primitive languages where the word for "forest" is just the word for "tree" repeated two or three times.

> Does remind me of those primitive languages where the word for "forest" is just the word for "tree" repeated two or three times.

Come to think of it, Chinese does that too: 'forest' is '森林'.

Re: Inner Speech

#123
It's interesting to me how all of the comments are about the title, but nothing (absolutely nothing) about the actual post linked; which is fair, plato stanford articles are dense philosophical essays, not really suited for the layperson.

Re: Inner Speech

#124
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "hearing" the voice is the confusing part, or only. Hard to know if it's a difference in the phenomenon itself or in how people characterize and perceive it. To me the question is about thinking conversationally. Internal dialogue. Whether or not that dialogue is perceived as sound is perhaps interesting, it's not hard to imagine it working differently. Written language exists. Sign language. Non-auditory lan…

What do you mean by "internal dialogue" here? To me a dialog would mean some back-and-forth, some difference of opinion or two individuals sharing ideas that one side doesn't have. Does your inner voice have autonomy, does it want things separate from what "you" want? Is it in any way "other" from you? Apologies if these seem like dumb questions. I have never heard a voice in my head so it's a bit like a monochromati…

Yes... basically. Dialogue. Audible-like dialogue. Back and forth. Difference of opinion. exactly that,

> Does your inner voice have autonomy, does it want things separate from what "you" want?

...Almost. I'm aware that it's all me. All my voice. By nature of dialogue, I cn sometimes feel like there's a "me" and a "voice" sometimes. But, it's quite fluid. Which one is which can reverse. I also try to use "me" or "I" instead of "you" or "we." Feels more sane... to me.

Just imagine a person having a conversation or debate with themselves out loud. It's similar to that.

Re: Inner Speech

#125
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so earth shattering to me. I'm completely unable to actually "see" anything when I imagine it, but I think I can visualize in the sense of recalling or imagining how it would look. Do people actually close their eyes and hallucinate or am I reading way to far into this?

I think there's some of that over-reading. In these exchanges the language typically gets sloppy and one person's "see" gets translated and reacted to as whoa, with their eyes? . If you can imagine a red car and see it in your mind's eye (fairly ephemeral, especially if you force it, and nothing like as vivid as a hallucination) I think you're pretty normal from having followed a few of these threads over the years.

If you have aphantasia, you can't "see it in your minds eye", but that does not mean I can't imagine what it looks like.

I know the distinction both from comparing with dreams, where I do see, and with a single experience during meditation (which I've tried many times but so far failed to replicate). They're nothing alike what it is to "imagine" for me.

Re: Inner Speech

#126
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes beyond that, I think, in that many of us have gone most of our lives believing others used this language metaphorically, and assigning a meaning to these words. I was about 45 by the point I realized most people to varying degrees actually meant that they saw things when imagining them. And so to me it's not that there no thought behind it, because I do something when I "imagine" something, just not the same…

This is so earth shattering to me. I'm completely unable to actually "see" anything when I imagine it, but I think I can visualize in the sense of recalling or imagining how it would look. Do people actually close their eyes and hallucinate or am I reading way to far into this?

Yes, people do, to varying degrees. Up to and including near picture perfect clarity, though most people have far less clearer images.

Only 2-4% or so see nothing at all.

Re: Inner Speech

#127
post #125
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's some of that over-reading. In these exchanges the language typically gets sloppy and one person's "see" gets translated and reacted to as whoa, with their eyes? . If you can imagine a red car and see it in your mind's eye (fairly ephemeral, especially if you force it, and nothing like as vivid as a hallucination) I think you're pretty normal from having followed a few of these threads over the years.

If you have aphantasia, you can't "see it in your minds eye", but that does not mean I can't imagine what it looks like. I know the distinction both from comparing with dreams, where I do see, and with a single experience during meditation (which I've tried many times but so far failed to replicate). They're nothing alike what it is to "imagine" for me.

Most people seem to be able to recall memories with some imagery and with some effort explore an object / space with imagery.

It's not vivid like a dream though, and doesn't have that 1st-personness either.

Re: Inner Speech

#128
post #6
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I wonder if the people that wrote this article are unable to fathom that people without an inner voice exist? I asked myself the same. There was a famous Reddit thread a couple years ago from a person who recently learned they did not have an inner voice, which made myself realize I also don't have one. I don't have the link saved and there seem to be a couple of such posts, but this one was pretty impactful in…

Do you 'randomly' replay memories?

Not more or less than someone who verbalizes their thoughts more. I would think it is orthogonal to inner voice. Do you think otherwise?

Re: Inner Speech

#129
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got and adapted the questions from a survey about these issues but I've been trying to get the question right as we tend to use language which presupposes things. I like this one as it asks to form an image and asks about clarity. The image is about hearing. So it crosses both parts. Another example would be to form an image of a telemarketer on the telephone. Change the accent. Introduce line distortion. For me it…

Ha, interesting! I don't have the control you have on my inner hearing. For a song I love, I can like sing along with my mouth shut, not only the voices, but also the instruments. Strangely, it's hard to have the complete song at the same time (voice + instruments), but I suspect it's more of a skill issue, as I seem to be able to do it faintly. I'm not envious of the people who have an inescapable inner voice. I thi…

People speak of these things in term of identity, but I wonder how true that is. I could easily imagine (pun intended) these are more akin to skills, that can be improved with practice.

Actually now that I think about it, I do know that this is a well-known phenomenon in the chess world. Newcomers are unable to to play blind-chess. But experienced players say that they gradually learned how to do it. How it started as a really blurry picture of just a small part of the board, and how they gradually got better at remembering and visualizing the whole board at the same and were able to play full games with a blindfold.

Re: Inner Speech

#130
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if it applies to me, i do have an inner voice, but it's way too slow for my thoughts. Never know how to explain it, but even though i am quick with finding the right words, it's so much slower than my thoughts. But i guess that's normal, so then, most people that have an inner voice, still don't use it for their thinking. It comes afterwards, at least that's how it seems to me.

That's exactly the same for me. I use my inner voice when I'm reading or trying to construct sentences, but I don't think in sentences. I have to convert my thoughts to words so I'm an extremely slow and clumsy talker. I thought this was normal to be honest, but others have sworn to me that they think in sentences and I wonder if that's why some people are such brilliant speakers since for some thoughts and speech ar…

I just can't really believe people with that. But i just asked 3 more people and they sworn the same as yours. Sure, language had an enormous impact on human intelligence and "thinking capability", but structured and complex language has evolved much later than clever and intelligent thinking was important for humans.

I feel very often like the need of having the right words to describe thoughts to fellow humans is on one hand crafting reality at the same time it's holding it, and therefore all of us, back.

Maybe this way of thinking is more what people understand as intuition?

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