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US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

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Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any government that depends on human virtuousness will fail. The only way to have a sustainable government is to have strong checks and balances and putting multiple factions with different interests against one another. Absolutely! Any form of government that depends on an unbroken line of "good people" in power will fail, and fail much sooner than anybody thinks. Modern China has already reached the end of their…

Strangely the UK, which has a no formal constitution and an unimaginable number "gentleman's agreement" parliamentary traditions - with absolutely no recourse for political malfeasance - has faired remarkably well for hundreds of years. The entire system is built on the notion that "the next leader will probably not undermine the entire system". It's only really faced a couple of real internal systemic threats throug…

> It's only really faced a couple of real internal systemic threats throughout its history and was (until the last decade) considered a bastion of political stability.

the political instability was an unintended consequence of a small change in 2011: the Fixed Term Parliaments Act

the Act removed the ancient power of the PM to call an election early (ironically intending to provide stability)

it resulted in a situation where parliament couldn't agree on anything with the usual way out (government calling a general election) no longer possible

the Fixed Term Parliaments Act has now been repealed, so hopefully this was a one-off

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#292
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only way to have a sustainable government is to have strong checks and balances I don't think this viewpoint can be supported empirically. The US government has much stronger checks and balances than most parliamentary systems where the prime minister is elected by the parliament. This means that there's no split possible between the executive and legislative branch. I think the result of this in the US is that…

> The US government has much stronger checks and balances than most parliamentary systems where the prime minister is elected by the parliament. This means that there's no split possible between the executive and legislative branch. I think the result of this in the US is that the government tends to deadlock, and has a lot of difficulty compromising, which leads to dissatisfaction and instability. The problem in the…

> In the intended frameworks the deadlocks were fully intentional. If you couldn't reach widespread consensus then you couldn't do something at the federal level

If gridlock was intended, what's the purpose of the formal simple majority requirement to pass laws? If gridlock was always to be the main state when disagreement existed, the "Nay" vote seems superfluous, which is an absurd result IMO.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#293
My question would be, what bonehead gave manufacturers [edited] the right to self-inspect planes in the first place without having their "fox guarding the henhouse" alarms go off?

We're lucky that our aircraft safety record has stayed as good as it has for this long.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats the point, the power will be abused. Free markets subvert toxic heirarchies and inefficient industries, thats how america was designed to work, private capital formation and the ability to compete freely. When you need to resort to political means to achieve your ends you violate peoples rights, those rights are considered above the authority of the government.

> Free markets subvert toxic heirarchies and inefficient industries But a free market cannot exist in the absence of regulation, and regulation is a form of government.

> a free market cannot exist in the absence of regulation

As you are using the term "regulation" (see below), this is false. A free market is in fact exactly what you do get in the absence of government regulation: all transactions are voluntary. Only governments can force people to engage in market transactions they don't want to engage in, or prevent them from engaging in market transactions they do want to engage in.

> regulation is a form of government

Not necessarily. A true free market is regulated by the voluntary choices of all of its participants. No government is required. Government regulation replaces or overrides regulation by voluntary choices of market participants.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#295
post #293

My question would be, what bonehead gave manufacturers [edited] the right to self-inspect planes in the first place without having their "fox guarding the henhouse" alarms go off? We're lucky that our aircraft safety record has stayed as good as it has for this long.

Airplane manufacturers--which means Boeing--not airlines.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#296
post #131

As an aside, For all those who talk about corruption and getting money out of politics I suggest reading Federalist 10 by Madison. Its a deep analysis of a need for a republican democracy. Any government that depends on human virtuousness will fail. The only way to have a sustainable government is to have strong checks and balances and putting multiple factions with different interests against one another.

While the Federalist Papers are great works, I don't agree with taking them as enlightened guidance from on high. They were theorizing. No one of them really knew how a modern democracy/republic would actually work in practice. Remember, the authors of the constitution (large overlap) stated on the record that they expected they got a lot of it wrong, and expected large swathes of it to be amended and replaced once a…

Yet at the same time, when re-reading them, I often find it striking just how relevant they are to some of our problems today, even though they were written by people in very different overall circumstances. My favorite for the past decade or so has been Federalist #22:

"Every idea of proportion and every rule of fair representation conspire to condemn a principle, which gives to Rhode Island an equal weight in the scale of power with Massachusetts, or Connecticut, or New York; and to Deleware an equal voice in the national deliberations with Pennsylvania, or Virginia, or North Carolina. Its operation contradicts the fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. Sophistry may reply, that sovereigns are equal, and that a majority of the votes of the States will be a majority of confederated America. But this kind of logical legerdemain will never counteract the plain suggestions of justice and common-sense. It may happen that this majority of States is a small minority of the people of America; and two thirds of the people of America could not long be persuaded, upon the credit of artificial distinctions and syllogistic subtleties, to submit their interests to the management and disposal of one third. The larger States would after a while revolt from the idea of receiving the law from the smaller. To acquiesce in such a privation of their due importance in the political scale, would be not merely to be insensible to the love of power, but even to sacrifice the desire of equality. It is neither rational to expect the first, nor just to require the last. The smaller States, considering how peculiarly their safety and welfare depend on union, ought readily to renounce a pretension which, if not relinquished, would prove fatal to its duration."

"But this is not all: what at first sight may seem a remedy, is, in reality, a poison. To give a minority a negative upon the majority (which is always the case where more than a majority is requisite to a decision), is, in its tendency, to subject the sense of the greater number to that of the lesser. Congress, from the nonattendance of a few States, have been frequently in the situation of a Polish diet, where a single VOTE has been sufficient to put a stop to all their movements. A sixtieth part of the Union, which is about the proportion of Delaware and Rhode Island, has several times been able to oppose an entire bar to its operations. This is one of those refinements which, in practice, has an effect the reverse of what is expected from it in theory. The necessity of unanimity in public bodies, or of something approaching towards it, has been founded upon a supposition that it would contribute to security. But its real operation is to embarrass the administration, to destroy the energy of the government, and to substitute the pleasure, caprice, or artifices of an insignificant, turbulent, or corrupt junto, to the regular deliberations and decisions of a respectable majority. In those emergencies of a nation, in which the goodness or badness, the weakness or strength of its government, is of the greatest importance, there is commonly a necessity for action. The public business must, in some way or other, go forward. If a pertinacious minority can control the opinion of a majority, respecting the best mode of conducting it, the majority, in order that something may be done, must conform to the views of the minority; and thus the sense of the smaller number will overrule that of the greater, and give a tone to the national proceedings. Hence, tedious delays; continual negotiation and intrigue; contemptible compromises of the public good. And yet, in such a system, it is even happy when such compromises can take place: for upon some occasions things will not admit of accommodation; and then the measures of government must be injuriously suspended, or fatally defeated. It is often, by the impracticability of obtaining the concurrence of the necessary number of votes, kept in a state of inaction. Its situation must always savor of weakness, sometimes border upon anarchy."

"It is not difficult to discover, that a principle of this kind gives greater scope to foreign corruption, as well as to domestic faction, than that which permits the sense of the majority to decide; though the contrary of this has been presumed. The mistake has proceeded from not attending with due care to the mischiefs that may be occasioned by obstructing the progress of government at certain critical seasons. When the concurrence of a large number is required by the Constitution to the doing of any national act, we are apt to rest satisfied that all is safe, because nothing improper will be likely TO BE DONE, but we forget how much good may be prevented, and how much ill may be produced, by the power of hindering the doing what may be necessary, and of keeping affairs in the same unfavorable posture in which they may happen to stand at particular periods. "

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing tiny countries at the edge of Europe and the edge of the world with the the US as super-power is a weakness. Every country has adopted American Republicanism with a clearly defined and written constitution that has some form of separation of powers. None of these, for example, allow the PM to act as an absolute dictator without some form of emergency. The difference is simply in whether the president has an…

The UK, Israel, Canada, and New Zealand all don't have written constitutions. 'None of these, for example, allow the PM to act as an absolute dictator' is not an example of the separation of powers, that's not what that phrase means at all

Canada may not have a singular written document called "constitution", but it has the Constitution Act, the Canada Act, and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, so I'd argue that it's still mostly written.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its a deep analysis of a need for a republican democracy. > The only way to have a sustainable government is to have strong checks and balances this is a very US centric view constitutional monarchies seem to work as well, if not better by the various democracy/stability indicies > Any government that depends on human virtuousness will fail. the near term survival of the current US system certainly looks far from c…

It turned out the US system depended more on human virtuousness than many of us realized. Personally I've been kinda shocked to find out how much was just based on norms and traditions with no enforcement at all.

The UK system depends on the same even more, though.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should literally have no government or society to speak of I don't think society is dependent on government. > would mean literally no power Literally no power ensconced in the hands of a _single individual_, I think was the point.

There are no historical or current examples of societies larger than a tribe that are lacking any form of government. The thing that is not mandatory, however, is the state , which is not a synonym. State-based government is centralized government, but government does not necessarily need to be centralized to the point where the result is a state.

You are limiting your definition of society to one that can be described by defended political borders. It's circular and tautological.

I would argue that the internet is a society that's broader than these political borders, obviously exists, and does so entirely outside of government control.

I would suggest you both missed this definition of society.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#300
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the US biparty system tends to have fewer checks and balances than a parliamentary system. In many ways, it's winner take all. President + 50%+1 in the lower legislature + 50%+1 in the upper legislature = a huge amount of power. Historically, I think it's been exceedingly rare to have as finely balanced government as recent times have featured. And to me, the Supreme Court is less about the people curr…

You need 60% in the senate to get anything passed. There have been many cases where one party controlled all three but couldnt accomplish much due to the filibuster. Famously Obama's first couple years.

Which, in practice, means senators representing an extreme minority of US citizens can block hugely popular legislation. California itself has a larger population than the least populous 21 states combined, yet gets the same 2 senate votes as each of those other states. The Senate is a hot mess as far as political game theory goes.
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