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Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

economist.com

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Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#351

Post by jiggawatts »

palisade wrote: post #342
jacquesm wrote: post #312

Note that there has been a concerted effort to discredit windmills by the oil-and-gas industry to portray them as meat grinders for birds with the same photographs and handy boilerplate text distributed to various "special interest groups" (read: astroturfers) all over the globe to try to stave off the inevitable. And all of this is perfectly legal. They did the same with whales.

The problem is that they're not wrong, turbines and even solar towers wipe out vast bird and bat populations. Obama had to pass a last minute law approving the numerous deaths of bald eagle populations unfortunately. Water desalination projects leave behind dead zones of salt in the water that wipe out fish populations. Another example is recycling centers grinding up the plastic and releasing a scary amount of micro…

Bald eagle numbers are soaring: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/bald-eagle-populat...

You're regurgitating pure propaganda put out by a multi-trillion-dollar industry that is orders of magnitude worse in every way.

"Americans execute record number of prisoners" -- Joseph Goebbels.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#352

Post by jiggawatts »

hotsauceror wrote: post #143

The entire "it kills birds" feels like such a canard, to me. I don't understand to whom this kind of appeal is directed. It seems to me that the primary interests at stake are 1) the myriad financial interests in the extraction, distribution, and consumption of petroleum-based energy products, and 2) the negative impact on the environment of these same activities. So let's just have that discussion, on those terms? I…

Donald Trump specifically hates windmills because they were being installed off-shore near one of the golf resorts that he owns, and he felt that it was "ruining the view".

So basically it's a billionaire complaining that we should stop saving the entire planet because his millionaire friends might not get a pristine view of the ocean at their exclusive club.

The bird thing is just a talking point he latched onto.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#353

Post by scotty79 »

Loughla wrote: post #319
Grimburger wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Domesticated cats are by far the biggest threats to birds worldwide. You won't see anti-wind advocates talking about curfews or outright banning them though.

That's because cats are not a power source? I'm genuinely confused how they would even be part of this conversation.

That just shows that it's not a conversation about birds. Birds are only incidental and brought up for the emotional (not actual) value.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#354

Post by hotsauceror »

jiggawatts wrote: post #352
hotsauceror wrote: post #143

The entire "it kills birds" feels like such a canard, to me. I don't understand to whom this kind of appeal is directed. It seems to me that the primary interests at stake are 1) the myriad financial interests in the extraction, distribution, and consumption of petroleum-based energy products, and 2) the negative impact on the environment of these same activities. So let's just have that discussion, on those terms? I…

Donald Trump specifically hates windmills because they were being installed off-shore near one of the golf resorts that he owns, and he felt that it was "ruining the view". So basically it's a billionaire complaining that we should stop saving the entire planet because his millionaire friends might not get a pristine view of the ocean at their exclusive club. The bird thing is just a talking point he latched onto.

To be fair though, there were similar complaints when they wanted to put a wind farm off of Cape Cod or Martha’s Vineyard or some wealthy leftist outpost like that. As you say, rich people don’t want their view spoiled.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#355

Post by switchbak »

Grimburger wrote: post #309
SamBam wrote: post #25

The local birds killed by oil drilling aren't even what we should be comparing to. Even if that number were zero, bird populations world still be better off in a world powered by wind turbines than oil and gas. Global warning is coming for birds too. Global warming poses an "existential threat for two thirds of North American bird species" [1] and obviously a similar proportion of bird species around the globe. 1. ht…

Domesticated cats are by far the biggest threats to birds worldwide. You won't see anti-wind advocates talking about curfews or outright banning them though.

My understanding is that feral cats kill far more than domesticated cats (as you'd expect), but this gets folded in under "cats kill $number of birds".

They're still impressive little killers, but that's important to keep in mind.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#356

Post by nullstyle »

throwaway03675 wrote: post #244
nullstyle wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Felis Catus doesn't have a native range in any meaningful manner, IMO. They are a global species like us, because of us. You can't put that cat back in the bag no matter the .22 cartridges you expend.

That shouldn't stop us from trying to limit their growth. "The cat is out of the bag" so to speak, but a lot of the growth comes from runaway cats, or cats that have been abandoned by their owners (happens more often than you think) We could start by requiring all domestic cats to be sterilized, so that they don't breed. Then the cat population would be limited to certified breeders and wild cats. We could also have…

"trying to limit their growth" is IMO approaching the whole situation incorrectly. Not saying I have answers, but IMO it's a narrow perspective that leads to things like the YouTube search results for "Australian cat hunter" or the feral hog tourist hunting shenanigans that go down in Texas. That shit should be condemned.

As something of a response to your proposed solutions, I'm a proponent of TNR and adoption, and teaching people to be better animal caretakers. You make some assumptions about "us" and "we" that doesn't line up with my personal take, so I won't say more.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#357

Post by belorn »

wanderingbit wrote: post #321
Loughla wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because cats are not a power source? I'm genuinely confused how they would even be part of this conversation.

I think they're bringing it up because cats are indeed the #1 killer of birds, and so for people who care about maintaining bird populations (presumably people who read this article) it would be better to focus on solutions that decrease the damage cats to do birds, rather than the damage wind turbines + oil-and-gas plants do to birds. Of course, if you care about birds you're going to try to solve it across multiple…

Are the bird species that cat kills the same ones that "wind turbines + oil-and-gas plants" kill?

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#358

Post by palisade »

jacquesm wrote: post #345
palisade wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that they're not wrong, turbines and even solar towers wipe out vast bird and bat populations. Obama had to pass a last minute law approving the numerous deaths of bald eagle populations unfortunately. Water desalination projects leave behind dead zones of salt in the water that wipe out fish populations. Another example is recycling centers grinding up the plastic and releasing a scary amount of micro…

> The problem is that they're not wrong, turbines and even solar towers wipe out vast bird and bat populations. > Obama had to pass a last minute law approving the numerous deaths of bald eagle populations unfortunately. 316K Eagles vs 150 confirmed deaths due to windmills over a decade . So yes, they're wrong. And amplifying this sort of thing is exactly what those campaigns hope for, so you're doing their work for…

That's odd because the official eagle foundation that protects eagles discusses thousands of recorded deaths. From the website, "At the infamous Altamont Wind Resource Area alone, more than 2,000 Golden Eagles have been killed by the wind turbines there." : https://eagles.org/take-action/wind-turbine-fatalities/

So which seems more believable that only 150 eagles died over a decade or thousands? Something is off here. Is anyone even checking properly? You can't have two completely distinct numbers like that.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#359

Post by palisade »

jiggawatts wrote: post #351
palisade wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that they're not wrong, turbines and even solar towers wipe out vast bird and bat populations. Obama had to pass a last minute law approving the numerous deaths of bald eagle populations unfortunately. Water desalination projects leave behind dead zones of salt in the water that wipe out fish populations. Another example is recycling centers grinding up the plastic and releasing a scary amount of micro…

Bald eagle numbers are soaring: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/bald-eagle-populat... You're regurgitating pure propaganda put out by a multi-trillion-dollar industry that is orders of magnitude worse in every way. "Americans execute record number of prisoners" -- Joseph Goebbels.

I mean I was basing it off numbers provided by the American Eagle Foundation. Which isn't a multi-trillion dollar industry, it's a small charity whose goal is conservation.

The American Eagle Foundation (AEF) is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization. Contributions to the American Eagle Foundation are tax-deductible to the extent permitted by law. The AEF’s tax identification number is 58-1652023.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#360

Post by locallost »

jurassicfoxy wrote: post #219
flkenosad wrote: post #181

Why does nobody talk about the real issue with wind and solar? It's ugly. It distracts from the landscape.

I didn't realize how stupid of an argument this was until my girlfriend pointed out how every single highway/landscape/street is absolutely covered in powerlines. The very few wind turbines are beautiful in comparison to what you see all over the continent, every day.

It's really crazy how easy it is to convince people of something.
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