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US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

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Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#141

As an aside, For all those who talk about corruption and getting money out of politics I suggest reading Federalist 10 by Madison. Its a deep analysis of a need for a republican democracy. Any government that depends on human virtuousness will fail. The only way to have a sustainable government is to have strong checks and balances and putting multiple factions with different interests against one another.

> The only way to have a sustainable government is to have strong checks and balances

I don't think this viewpoint can be supported empirically. The US government has much stronger checks and balances than most parliamentary systems where the prime minister is elected by the parliament. This means that there's no split possible between the executive and legislative branch. I think the result of this in the US is that the government tends to deadlock, and has a lot of difficulty compromising, which leads to dissatisfaction and instability. Conflicts heighten without compromise or resolution for decades until they reach a breaking point. In a parliamentary system, the need to build a governing coalition can result in greater incentives to compromise.

Similarly, judicial review seems to be much much weaker in most countries. In the US, the supreme court can strike down a law with immediate effect of nullifying that law. It's been hard for me to find comparisons, but it seems like in other countries, there's some combination of judicial review being only advisory, or not having immediate effect. So in some countries, the judicial branch says a law is un-constitutional, and the legislative branch can ignore it, or has some period of time to defend or revise the law, rather than the law being immediately struck. This is fundamentally undemocratic. That's a good thing some times, but not good other times.

In practice, parties tend to govern by attempting to control the supreme court, because there's no possible way to pass their agendas due to our vaunted checks and balances. This does not seem like the hallmark of an effective democracy to me.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#142
post #68
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An industry regulating itself is different from an organisation regulating itself. Self regulation of the industry is common as you say. It tends to involve one central body enforcing the standards on the members, and acting as a central point for agreement of the standards. This is not the case with the Aviation regulation. The FAA is the regulator, and has delegated the testing to the people it is meant to be regul…

Prominent examples of "Self Regulating Organizations": The New York Stock Exchange (NYSE), The Financial Planning Association (FPA), Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT), American Council of Life Insurers (ACLI), Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, Inc. (FINRA), Fixed Income Clearing Corporation (FICC), Options Clearing Corporation (OCC), American Institute of Certified Public Accounts (AICPA) https://www.investopedia.…

These examples are arguably qualitatively different from what's happening with Boeing's self-inspection.

I used to work at an organization that was governed by multiple of the SROs you list there. Here's how it worked: They set rules, we followed them, they monitored and audited us. There were also governmental organizations monitoring both them and us.

I think that the key distinction here is not actually public vs. private. It's more of a "sunlight is the best disinfectant" situation. The simple knowledge that you have some external agency that doesn't have moral hazard concerns to compromise its interests that is keeping an eye on you, and that you know is keeping an eye on you, does a lot to incentivize better behavior. Is it perfect? No, far from it. But, at least in the specific case of the financial industry, it's not clear to me that a 100% governmental regulatory system would actually fare any better. I think that the unstated major premise of such an idea is that the people in charge of the governmental regulators - elected officials - are uncompromisable ethical paragons. And if you believe that, I've got some hot penny stocks that I'd like to tell you about.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#143
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wonder what sort of scenario might unfold if a company had a team of developers who's sole job it was to test other teams' software in a red-team fashion. I am all too familiar with QA organizations, and the problems in that environment, and am all for developers conducting their own testing as a fundamental part of development, but what if we took it a step further? You get a lot of infighting between the develop…

Is the infighting you speak of politically motivated? Is this a QA vs. Dev mentality?

Development slows to a crawl and nothing gets done. We have audit teams up our ass at my job and you can't do anything due to the 100 layers created by previous audits. There has to be someone that says "work needs to get done" we don't really have that.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#144
post #6

What other industry is allowed to inspect itself? It completely ruins the point of an inspection. It's like being the judge and jury in your own trial. I'm amazed this is a thing in the first place.

Every industry self inspects. The city inspects its utilities. The construction companies inspect their own work. The only time an outside inspector is used is when the company is doing the work for a client, so the client uses an inspector..

If you screw up inspection repeatedly, then you get replaced. This article is about a weird govt flex.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of industries self-inspect with regulatory oversight. For example, the SpaceX Starship mishap investigation that required 63 corrective actions from SpaceX before they were allowed to fly Starship again was done by SpaceX with FAA oversight. It seems that the oversight was effective; I highly doubt that SpaceX would have imposed 63 corrective actions on itself without effective oversight. It's hard to see how i…

> I highly doubt that SpaceX would have imposed 63 corrective actions on itself without effective oversight. Eh, I don't know if I agree with that. Most of the actions were very straightforward "stuff we need to fix to make the rocket do what we want it to do and not do what we don't want it to do". Like, one of the actions was "make the launch pad not explode when the engines turn on". That was the root cause of the…

Rocket launches have to be close to the ideal candidate for COE-driven improvement. Any actual problems are going to be problems that need solving in the short term, and if they aren't solved, there will probably be short term pain. The costs of each launch are high enough that they have to take low-probability/high-severity risks seriously.

Other industries have incentives to defer problems into future years, to externalize the costs, or to just plain hide or ignore them based on things like "accepted industry practice" or "within prescribed safety limits". Somebody needs to balance out the short-term incentives by decision makers to get promoted on the back of a press release about a splashy success, because that success may have a metric ton of failure disguised inside.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#146
post #6

What other industry is allowed to inspect itself? It completely ruins the point of an inspection. It's like being the judge and jury in your own trial. I'm amazed this is a thing in the first place.

Finance. As proven by the 2008-2010 Great Financial Crisis, self regulation does not work well.

...in all cases. You've got a great counterexample, but it doesn't invalidate the successful use of self-regulation in other areas.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#147

Many people seem to think this couldn't/wouldn't have happened if someone else had been doing the inspections. This problem was likely caused by a flaw in the process. A mistake a 3rd party could also make. It is not a mistake where Boeing is doing nefarious cost cutting and needs to hide it or has made a huge engineering mistake affecting all the aircraft. Somebody put the plug in - got a phone call, or shift change…

Hmm they have already found 7 other planes with loose bolts in the same section. On other airlines besides Alaska. Don’t think distracted 3rd party is the issue… seems more like a production problem considering the Alaska airlines 737 was only 2 months old

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#148
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any government that depends on human virtuousness will fail. The only way to have a sustainable government is to have strong checks and balances and putting multiple factions with different interests against one another. Absolutely! Any form of government that depends on an unbroken line of "good people" in power will fail, and fail much sooner than anybody thinks. Modern China has already reached the end of their…

> And government should only have as much power as you think the worst possible people in charge should have. This immediately falls apart, by that logic we should literally have no government or society to speak of. "Only as much power as you think the worst possible person should have" would mean literally no power - there isn't a single decision in my life I would pass off to the worst person I could think of. Wha…

What they're describing is infrastructure, which is what government should be.

Not a ruling class.

Re: US regulator considers stripping Boeing's right to self-inspect planes

#150
It is sad to see the number of commments here and no one mentions that a manufacturer not inspecting their own work is like an employee who does not check his own work, or an engineering team that does not check its work.

Boeing is great! It does great work. But yes, it lost several moments of pride, and that does not work great for Boeing.

In order for a company to do better, you need to take an honest multi-year review of their processes and cite multiple issues, and see through multiple corrections. Then we will have a well corrected company. And that is what Boeing needs, along with a bifurcation for increased competition.

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