Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

asc.ohio-state.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 189 posts

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#171

Post by jebarker »

borroka wrote: post #106
godelski wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like you're describing a system that is a failure but that the solution is not to fix the system but to give up and do something else. Can we not fix academia? Is the signal of so many people, especially in CS, abandoning academia for industry not as clear of a sign as you can get? I feel crazy because it feels like everyone either does not want to admit the system is broken or will admit it but not want…

First, a postdoc on the way out of academia is not going to fix academia. Second, how is the system broken? There are mismanaged resources, some nepotism (in the U.S., a lot of nepotism if we look at countries other than the U.S. or the like), some research questions that are (wrongly) favored, but it doesn't change the fact that many more PhDs with academic career ambitions are being produced than there are (and wil…

> And this is not just an academia problem: the same mismatch between supply and demand is found in many other creative and aspirational careers, think actors, singers, sports

I don't often hear people complaining that sports, music, theatre are broken because of this supply/demand mismatch. (People certainly complain about other problems, e.g. streaming music royalties). It's generally accepted that it's a rare and special thing to make a good living in those industries. Why do we view academia differently? Is it because it seems more like "work"?

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#172

Post by naveen99 »

tnecniv wrote: post #13

As a researcher, I’ve felt largely the same way lately. It’s been hard for me to even wrap up a project I was so excited about when I started it that I missed sleep because I was that engaged. Unfortunately, I don’t have a cozy tenure position at a major research institution to ride out the burnout until I feel inspired again. I’m just a lowly postdoc. I’ve thought about leaving the research life for a regular job, b…

There are a couple of approaches to life I have used at various times:

1. Have fun. Limit productive activities to 2 hrs a day.

2. Go all out on a new idea. Succeed or fail.

If there is no risk of failure, you are really in mode 1. 2 is only possibly for short bursts, upto 1-2 weeks. if you feel burnt out, it’s time for zone 1 for sure.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#173

Post by godelski »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #169
godelski wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally went through this recently with someone in my department. They wanted to know what professors did similar research to me at R1 universities of comparable rank. I told them no one and they didn't believe me. I sent them an annotated version of a bibliography to a survey paper I had recently written, writing down where each person worked. I just don't think they understand that right now, as an intern for a…

> I'm being asked to do things that have never been done before -- and I love this, it is the ultimate puzzle -- but how the fuck do you expect me to give accurate ETAs and to do this 3-5 times a year and launch ground breaking work with some 2080Ti nodes and maybe one A100 node? If it is work that some industry is highly interested in, and this industry has deep pockets, it is very hard to compete with it in academi…

Fwiw, this is the route most academics take, but it is still not easy to publish in this domain. I've seen workshop papers get rejected from very clearly academic work because they don't use real world or large datasets. I've seen theory papers get rejected because they don't have experiments. Yes, read that last one again. And mind you, these big companies also do a lot of theory and foundational work too. The process is just noisy.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#174

Post by borroka »

jebarker wrote: post #171
borroka wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, a postdoc on the way out of academia is not going to fix academia. Second, how is the system broken? There are mismanaged resources, some nepotism (in the U.S., a lot of nepotism if we look at countries other than the U.S. or the like), some research questions that are (wrongly) favored, but it doesn't change the fact that many more PhDs with academic career ambitions are being produced than there are (and wil…

> And this is not just an academia problem: the same mismatch between supply and demand is found in many other creative and aspirational careers, think actors, singers, sports I don't often hear people complaining that sports, music, theatre are broken because of this supply/demand mismatch. (People certainly complain about other problems, e.g. streaming music royalties). It's generally accepted that it's a rare and…

I think it's because people who do research are perceived as someone who wants, out of good heart, to provide a benefit to humanity.

"How can you not want me to work on this enzyme pathway that can explain how this very rare and aggressive form of cancer develops?" sounds different from "How can you not want me to star in this silly sitcom?". I used extreme examples, but still.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#175

Post by borroka »

godelski wrote: post #149
borroka wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to "system broken" with respect to many PhDs with ambitions of an academic career having to leave academia because there are not enough tenure-track positions available. With respect to that problem, it would be equivalent to say that "Hollywood is broken" because many talented aspiring actors cannot find stable work in films and tv shows. It is a supply and demand mismatch problem. I was not referrin…

> I was referring to ... many PhDs with ambitions of an academic career having to leave academia... I see. I don't think this makes the system broken and I don't think a large portion of people going into industry is a bad thing. At the end of the day, schooling, even at the PhD level, is training. I am not concerned that we do not have a high retention rate, though I am concerned that the retention is not targeting…

> My complaint about the system being broken is more about the incentive structures and metrics that are used within the academic setting.

We have to keep in mind that those incentives, targets, and metrics were set up by the academics themselves. It is the same in funding agencies and departments.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#176

Post by borroka »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #155
borroka wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, a postdoc on the way out of academia is not going to fix academia. Second, how is the system broken? There are mismanaged resources, some nepotism (in the U.S., a lot of nepotism if we look at countries other than the U.S. or the like), some research questions that are (wrongly) favored, but it doesn't change the fact that many more PhDs with academic career ambitions are being produced than there are (and wil…

> First, a postdoc on the way out of academia is not going to fix academia. I disagree: just found an edtech startup for tertiary education or (post-)graduate level research.

> just found an edtech startup for tertiary education or (post-)graduate level research.

How is an edtech startup going to solve post-graduate research, an enterprise that involves millions of people around the world working on all fields under the sun, and is, by its very nature, unprofitable?

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#177

Post by borroka »

mtekman wrote: post #164
borroka wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, there’s not really other jobs I’d rather do. I suspect there are many jobs you would do, but you have to allow yourself to let go of the dreams, the ambitions, the identity you have built in academia. A few years ago, almost seven, I decided to leave academia, after a PhD and many years as a post doc, more than 50 journal papers published, awards and recognition in my field. I loved doing research, writing p…

> I started interviewing for positions in (tech) industry, got a monetary offer 5 times what I was making as a senior postdoc, started a new career, and never looked back. Hello, I'm in a similar sort of transition position. May I ask where you applied (US/UK/EU-based?) and what your main experience was in adapting your academic CV to industry? (Feel free to reach me by email or matrix too)

I applied for tech positions in the United States, where I was (and still am) living.

I came from a quantitative background and it was quite easy to repurpose my statistical and mathematical modeling into AI/ML. The best thing to do is to be agentic and assertive, which in this case means contacting people at the companies where you would like to work (you may or may not know them personally, the former is obviously preferred) and where your skills can be put to good use, and asking for a warm introduction to recruiters and managers.

I was fortunate enough to know a few techies (we used to train in the same gym) who put my CV on the recruiter's desk. Fifty percent of the interviews came from those warm introductions and the rest from sending the CV to job ads.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#178

Post by jebarker »

borroka wrote: post #174
jebarker wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And this is not just an academia problem: the same mismatch between supply and demand is found in many other creative and aspirational careers, think actors, singers, sports I don't often hear people complaining that sports, music, theatre are broken because of this supply/demand mismatch. (People certainly complain about other problems, e.g. streaming music royalties). It's generally accepted that it's a rare and…

I think it's because people who do research are perceived as someone who wants, out of good heart, to provide a benefit to humanity. "How can you not want me to work on this enzyme pathway that can explain how this very rare and aggressive form of cancer develops?" sounds different from "How can you not want me to star in this silly sitcom?". I used extreme examples, but still.

Interesting. That perception underestimates how much researchers like doing research I think. The demand shortage and price paid is just function of how much society values research versus entertainment.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#179

Post by borroka »

jebarker wrote: post #178
borroka wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because people who do research are perceived as someone who wants, out of good heart, to provide a benefit to humanity. "How can you not want me to work on this enzyme pathway that can explain how this very rare and aggressive form of cancer develops?" sounds different from "How can you not want me to star in this silly sitcom?". I used extreme examples, but still.

Interesting. That perception underestimates how much researchers like doing research I think. The demand shortage and price paid is just function of how much society values research versus entertainment.

That may be so.

But it is the same when we talk about surgeons and teachers, who, in the collective subconscious, are seen as saintly figures, people who have dedicated themselves to the betterment of society. But the vast majority of surgeons and teachers love to be surgeons and teachers, love to cut and repair and explain things to young people. In fact, people who teach, for example, sales to employees of a company basically do the same job as high school teachers, but we do not consider them as worthy of our admiration.

And as for the price paid by society for research, the public knows approximately nothing about research. And when they think about scientists they think about Albert Einstein, people of genius frequently lost in their thoughts solving equations. But if they knew the reality of most universities, departments, and research groups, they would be willing to pay way less than the state/government is paying scientists and other researchers for their, I dare to say, often meaningless investigations.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#180

Post by emeril »

tnecniv wrote: post #13

As a researcher, I’ve felt largely the same way lately. It’s been hard for me to even wrap up a project I was so excited about when I started it that I missed sleep because I was that engaged. Unfortunately, I don’t have a cozy tenure position at a major research institution to ride out the burnout until I feel inspired again. I’m just a lowly postdoc. I’ve thought about leaving the research life for a regular job, b…

not all meds are the same for everyone - maybe try an maoi like emsam - helped me a bunch with that feeling

to varying degrees, jobs are what you make of it rather than what it makes of you

Post reply on HN