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Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

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121–130 of 232 posts

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#121
I think it is a trope that engineering is "black or white".

Having been a professional engineer for 35 years, it is anything BUT. Everything is a threshold for negotiation, there is give and take in every design decision. There is no black-white anywhere I've ever seen, except freshman-year logic texts. Even with digital logic, in reality, there is no such thing as digital: slopes, thresholds, manufacturing variations, it's all analog.

Where does this notion come from?

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#122

> I’ve heard a few good arguments in this direction before, things like how engineering trains you to have a very black-and-white right-or-wrong view of the world based on a few simple formulae, Whenever the rationalist writers start talking about engineering, programming, or machine learning in technical terms I have a sudden Gell-Mann Amnesia realization that these people's primary domain is writing and pontificati…

Thanks for finding the exact words for how I also feel about the rationalist community.

Source: sufficiently smart chemical engineer

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#126

> " Like I mean that on most topics, I could demolish their position and make them look like an idiot. Reduce them to some form of “Look, everything you say fits together and I can’t explain why you’re wrong, I just know you are!” " That isn't making them look like an idiot, reducing them, or demolishing their position. That is completely failing to demolish their position! While also failing to convincingly explain…

It also ignores the question of how the person even got their prior in the first place. Presumably they heard a convincing argument at one point and accepted that - but then later changed their standards to not accept convincing arguments. In fact, how do they even know "if I know that a false argument sounds just as convincing as a true argument, argument convincingness provides no evidence either way"? Presumably they were convinced of it at some point.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#127

> I’ve heard a few good arguments in this direction before, things like how engineering trains you to have a very black-and-white right-or-wrong view of the world based on a few simple formulae, Whenever the rationalist writers start talking about engineering, programming, or machine learning in technical terms I have a sudden Gell-Mann Amnesia realization that these people's primary domain is writing and pontificati…

Yes, I think that an engineer who can navigate (to some extent) human and organisational minefields will be much more effective than one who is merely super-smart

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#128

This article talks about learned helplessness in a learning context. I talked about it in a work context, and the two could be linked. I think social media is training people for everything to be quick, but learning + work aren't necessarily quick. > This insistence on constant availability disrupts the essence of focused work. Rather than encouraging employees to tackle complex problems independently, there’s a tren…

Flipping the script a bit: As a senior developer, avoid cultivating learned helplessness. You can push back on this in a couple ways: 1) Instead of answering questions, give a nudge to where the solution is documented ("Hey I'm swamped, but I'd recommend checking X for more info. If you haven't read through X yet, that's a good resource to skim"). Keep tabs on how much your junior team members are expected to know, n…

I agree with all of this with one minor quibble. I'd never tell someone I'm in a position to mentor / coach / lead like this that I'm swamped. It's probably true, but that's my problem not theirs. I don't want them to avoiding talking to me because they think I'm too busy. I know that was in an example statement and not necessarily something you're endorsing, but I thought the point worth bringing up.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#129

> " Like I mean that on most topics, I could demolish their position and make them look like an idiot. Reduce them to some form of “Look, everything you say fits together and I can’t explain why you’re wrong, I just know you are!” " That isn't making them look like an idiot, reducing them, or demolishing their position. That is completely failing to demolish their position! While also failing to convincingly explain…

> That isn't making them look like an idiot, reducing them, or demolishing their position

I think the quote is in Scott's opponent's voice, not his own.

> Instead of doubling down on one, let go of all of them

Yes. We don't need better ways to form opinions - the world would be a better place if we all just had fewer opinions

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#130
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a tech lead I would rather see a team member ask me questions early than never. Nudging them in the right direction before they waste 3 days going down a path that’s never going to work is at least half my job. But it’s important that they’ve done enough research to formulate the question. A little struggle helps the learning stick.

I agree, but in practice now I've come to see that this is an extremely difficult point to discern. As the vast majority of findings flow in as a trickle, there often isn't a large enough delta to identify as a launching point for asking for help. For example, if one continues to search, they will keep finding breadcrumbs leading them to the solution. It is painful to me when someone spends 3 days looking for a solut…

You need to socialize the problem; to broadcast that you are trying to solve something. Some sort of internal discussion board could work. It serves the same purposes as the water cooler.

If anyone can think of a way to make software better serve this end I'd love to hear.

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