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Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

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Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#111

This article talks about learned helplessness in a learning context. I talked about it in a work context, and the two could be linked. I think social media is training people for everything to be quick, but learning + work aren't necessarily quick. > This insistence on constant availability disrupts the essence of focused work. Rather than encouraging employees to tackle complex problems independently, there’s a tren…

Flipping the script a bit:

As a senior developer, avoid cultivating learned helplessness. You can push back on this in a couple ways:

1) Instead of answering questions, give a nudge to where the solution is documented ("Hey I'm swamped, but I'd recommend checking X for more info. If you haven't read through X yet, that's a good resource to skim"). Keep tabs on how much your junior team members are expected to know, nudge them harder if they aren't taking the time to ingest the gestalt of what's there (it feels like a waste of time to do so sometimes... Reading isn't getting code written. But knowing what's already there saves work in the long run).

2) When something isn't documented... review the docs a junior team member writes, don't write them yourself. This both encourages them to have ownership over the system and will probably generate better docs in the long run (everyone has a notion of what docs should look like, but communication is two-way: seeing what someone writes down clues you into what you missed is necessary to record. Can't tell you how many docs I've seen for cloud systems, for example, that assume the user is logged in with proper credentials when that step alone usually requires handshaking across three services and maybe an IT team).

3) Prefer mistakes to silence. Don't bash a team member for making a correctible mistake, even in production; use it as a learning opportunity both for them and for you (if that mistake was possible, you're missing a guardrail). Actively communicate to junior members that wrong code that exists is preferable to no code; wrong code can be talked about, no code is work yet to be done. And be aware that for a lot of junior devs, the reaction to making a visible error is like touching a hot stove; cultivate a soup-to-nuts environment that minimizes that hot-stove reflex.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#112
post #25

> The medical establishment offers a shiny tempting solution. First, a total unwillingness to trust anything, no matter how plausible it sounds, until it’s gone through an endless cycle of studies and meta-analyses. Isn't this just... science? We learned from the ancient philosophers that really smart people can reason powerfully about a whole lot of things. But - if we want to know whether that reasoning holds up, i…

This is all very noble on paper.

Yes, people can be persuasive to twist the truth.

And testing is good for arriving at proof.

But what the ancient philosophers didn't count on, is that there is a machine in charge of what gets tested and how, and that choosing what and how things get tested can also be twisted to be persuasive. I can develop and thoroughly test my own drug, and then persuade you that a much cheaper chemical is not tested enough (because I blocked all attempts at testing it), and then I would point to the noble principles of ancient science as to why things need verification.

In other words, the current world is teaching us that really powerful corporations can test selectively about a whole lot of things.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#113
post #9

This feels like it belongs on /r/iamverysmart. Most people don't argue within moral frameworks. Most people don't live logic-based lives. Most people prefer happiness to correctness, peace to progress, and quietude to justice. This is a very difficult thing, and not a very good thing, for those who want change.

I would argue it is a very good thing. Most “bad” things historically have been created by those clamouring for progress and justice. Like Bukowski said those who preach peace do not have peace beware the preachers beware the knowers beware those who are always reading books I would extend it as those who preach justice are not just those who preach rationality are not rational those who preach correctness are not ri…

Every new good or bad thing is by definition a change.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#115

>I don’t think I’m overselling myself too much to expect that I could argue circles around the average uneducated person. Like I mean that on most topics, I could demolish their position and make them look like an idiot. Reduce them to some form of “Look, everything you say fits together and I can’t explain why you’re wrong, I just know you are!” Or, more plausibly, “Shut up I don’t want to talk about this!” > And th…

The 10 Principles of Rationality:

1. Your beliefs and assumptions are facts and logic; other people's beliefs and assumptions are emotions and biases

2. If someone describes an experience you can't relate to, it's an anomaly and you should ignore it

3. You know more than other people (except for third-parties who agree with you: they are an unquestionable authorities)

4. Never engage with issues in the context of real events; only examine issues in contrived, hypothetical scenarios

5. Avoid debates with real people; instead, make up imaginary people and argue against the make-believe opinions you give them

6. If you do debate a real person, your primary goal is to make them look foolish (not to change their mind, or yours)

7. Your understanding of other people's feelings and beliefs is more accurate and nuanced than their own

8. Your wild guesses and baseless estimates are valid statistical data

9. It's ok to bend the truth when necessary to prove a point

10. If someone disagrees with you, it's because they're less rational than you

The 10 Decrees of Rationality:

1. A person's wealth is a direct measurement of their contribution to society

2. The best way to help people is by getting rich as fast as possible (it doesn't matter how)

3. When helping people, it's best to ignore their input and feedback (if they had sound judgement then they wouldn't need help)

4. When someone does something good, they're probably secretly doing it for terrible reasons

5. When rich people do something terrible, they're probably secretly doing it for good reasons

6. Believing in your favorite unproven conspiracy doesn't make you a "conspiracy theorist"

7. Stereotypes are based in truth, except for the ones that you find personally offensive

8. When people say your research is bogus, it means your research is really so profound that they're scared of its implications

9. Super-intelligent AI is the greatest threat to humanity

10. Capitalism is a natural, fair, and sustainable system that makes our world a better place

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#116
After spending many years studying philosophy I think that the right approach is that you don’t need to come to any conclusions about anything.

Aristotle often started with common peoples’ viewpoints on any given topic, along with looking at what experts thought and built his own ideas from there, and of course was very successful with his methodology.

Arguments are interesting and obviously some are more correct than others but everyone has good reasons for what they argue for and there is a genius to the collective thoughts of humanity even if it seems like insanity most of the time.

The best starting point is one of ignorance and asking other people what they think, you don’t need consensus but you should be looking for clues, solid ground, and inspiration.

Everyone should get more comfortable andmitting to and saying that they truly ‘don’t know’. Taking a position of ignorance will open the doors to real possibilities and actual progress.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#117

Summary: Scott Alexander recounts his gullibility to various well-reasoned crackpot arguments on a topic, and describes how he to decided to trust experts instead of investing time into learning enough to assess the topic for himself. Then he reflects on the nature of argument-accepting and its relation to rationality. I don’t think the term “learned helplessness” fits well here. It suggests a lack of agency, whereas…

A further thought that is too much for an edit… one of Alexander’s final conclusions is:

> I’m glad that some people never develop epistemic learned helplessness, or develop only a limited amount of it, or only in certain domains. It seems to me that […] they’re also the only people who can figure out if something basic and unquestionable is wrong, and make this possibility well-known enough that normal people start becoming willing to consider it.

I think there’s better framing here as well: he is glad that a few people direct their own bounded resources towards what I’d call high-risk epistemic investments.

I’m also thankful for this. As species, we seem to be pretty good at this epistemic risk/reward balancing act - so far, at least.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#118
> "Like I mean that on most topics, I could demolish their position and make them look like an idiot. Reduce them to some form of “Look, everything you say fits together and I can’t explain why you’re wrong, I just know you are!”"

That isn't making them look like an idiot, reducing them, or demolishing their position. That is completely failing to demolish their position! While also failing to convincingly explain your position.

> "If you have a good argument that the Early Bronze Age worked completely differently from the way mainstream historians believe, I just don’t want to hear about it. If you insist on telling me anyway, I will nod, say that your argument makes complete sense, and then totally refuse to change my mind or admit even the slightest possibility that you might be right. (This is the correct Bayesian action: if I know that a false argument sounds just as convincing as a true argument, argument convincingness provides no evidence either way. I should ignore it and stick with my prior.)"

Maybe the correct action is to see that how the Early Bronze Age worked has so little effect on your life, no testable hypothesis to confirm one way or the other, that it doesn't matter which one you believe, or if you believe both (even if they are contradictory, that's a thing humans can do). Instead of doubling down on one, let go of all of them.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#119
> I’m glad that some people never develop epistemic learned helplessness, or develop only a limited amount of it, or only in certain domains.

What always struck me about famous philosophers is that almost none of them ever changed their minds. They grasped a main idea, turned it into a supreme principle, built everything around it, and defended their system against all critiques their whole life. I know this is simplifying but I think it's pretty close.

And yet when I read their works, it's easy to see flaws in their position. So I've always wondered how they could have such tenacity. I'm glad they did though. But it feels like they sacrificed their own life for the rest of us, so that we could see where one idea goes: what it looks like when it's fully developed.

When I play chess, I can never go very deeply down a single line before I get distracted by alternatives. But I guess some people are doing a depth-first search. I don't get it, and they may be wrong, but it's like a service to us all.

Re: Epistemic Learned Helplessness (2019)

#120
post #50

This article talks about learned helplessness in a learning context. I talked about it in a work context, and the two could be linked. I think social media is training people for everything to be quick, but learning + work aren't necessarily quick. > This insistence on constant availability disrupts the essence of focused work. Rather than encouraging employees to tackle complex problems independently, there’s a tren…

This just has not been my experience at all. I've never had a problem with a junior asking too many questions. Never. I have, however, had issues with them not asking enough questions.

Right. I never got upset with a question. The only issue is getting the same question multiple times.

Not necessarily the same question verbatim, by the way. When I answer a question, I am trying to “teach to fish,” and so there is some system that I am explaining. My hope is that the asker will show curiosity - ask follow-up questions - and then be able to generalize. “I learned there was a lambda for sending emails, in the sysops repo. Maybe there is a lambda for sending slack messages in there too?”

Software systems are imperfect so the generalizations might break. In this case I want another question quickly, like “I couldn’t find a slack message sender like the email one. Does one exist?”

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