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Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

economist.com

101–110 of 413 posts

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#101
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want a "proper study" instead of an annual time series, comparable for over a century, conducted by millions of individuals? What a goofy comment. This is gold-standard data. The paper even explains why this is superior to nerd bullshit like eBird.

Whoa whoa whoa. Whoa! Watch what are you calling nerd bullshit. ;-)

you are right, in any case it would be nerd birdshit

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#103

The title is symptomatic for the climate discourse; either for or against oil/coal and wind/solar. I find the question "what is a reliable, clean and affordable energy source?" much more relevant and productive.

Affordable is the trick, though - while I totally understand why that is important, sometimes it seems like we're going to end up saying: "Sorry we are going extinct... staying alive wasn't profitable." I know that is both an idealistic and hyperbolic take on things. The bigger point is that when people say "affordable", they often really mean "profitable". But we cannot afford not to fix the problems.

It seems to me that nuclear and fossil energy is heavily subsidized almost everywhere. So affordability is kind of a tricky metric.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#104
post #78

This is broken logic. Working primarily with averages leads directly to repeating the mistakes of the statistician who drown in a lake that was an average of three feet deep. Currently one of the notably large wind farms being operated is in the Altamont Pass in California which also happens to be the preferred spawning site for golden eagles. Does it make sense to assert that since wind farms are generally beneficia…

> Does it make sense to assert that since wind farms are generally beneficial that we should not worry about drastically reducing or even eliminating golden eagles in California?

Yes. Boiling our atmosphere will harm bald eagles in addition to everything else. Bald eagles are cool birds, unless you live somewhere that they’re as common as seagulls and 20x as annoying. If forced to choose, I’d rather have a healthy world with few bald eagles than Venus with none.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#106

The title is symptomatic for the climate discourse; either for or against oil/coal and wind/solar. I find the question "what is a reliable, clean and affordable energy source?" much more relevant and productive.

Not sure I understand the objection. The research this article is about compared Wind vs Oil/Coal effects on birds. The title seems in line with the findings of the research.

> I find the question "what is a reliable, clean and affordable energy source?" much more relevant and productive.

Seems to me like examining externalities of different energy sources is a part of the nuance of this question. Feels like you're being a bit of a hater.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#107

I am not a conspiracy theorist, it's just a simple case of "follow the money". The fossil fuel industry is a trillion dollar per year business and their interest is to keep it this way. So poisoning the well is a good strategy for them. If you thought about it, it was clear the bird argument was always just a talking point nimby types were fed with, so they have something alarming to repeat and to get outraged, witho…

Yeah but the alternative / green energy industry is also worth hundreds of billions; [0] says solar will be a $373B industry by 2029, [1] says wind will be $278B by 2030, and [2] says nuclear will be a tiny $38B by 2029. My point is that the alternative energy sector's financial interests are at least as big as the fossil fuel industry's, but they put a lot of effort into coming across as The Good Guys That Will Save Our Planet For The Future Of Our Children, because that means they will get government funding and investments from new energy and infrastructure projects.

Disclaimer: I pulled these numbers from the first google search results. I don't know why they all look 5 years ahead. I am not an energy or financial expert.

[0] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/solar-power-market-size-2022-...

[1] https://www.renewableenergymagazine.com/wind/global-wind-pow...

[2] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/global-nuclear-energy-market-...

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#108
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So 2-1/2 acres plus roads, instead of 5 acres, and you address how long, which OP didn't mention, in no way disputing him. Not a basis for leading with "incredibly false."

Seriously, every hole results in an eventual dump, tank, yard, road, or some other dang thing and the net land wrecked per operation is five acres. https://maps.app.goo.gl/sKfYNokGcidWLGTQ7

Windmill farms have roads also. Traveling in Illinois recently and seeing some huge 300+ft windmills in the corn and soybean fields, I think that is a perfect place for them. The whole scene is quite artificial and totally human controlled. The windmills fit right in. I don't think they should be placed on wilderness type lands. Similar to a fracking operation, you have a dense network of roads and the moving, man-made objects are quite jarring on the landscape. And unlike oil or gas extraction those sites will likely be in use for hundreds of years instead of a few decades.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#109
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It blows up though.

Yeah and planes crash and it's spectacular, but they're still the safest means of transportation by far.

Planes are fast though. Even if less safe that cars we would still use them.

Re: Wind turbines are friendlier to birds than oil-and-gas drilling

#110

I am not a conspiracy theorist, it's just a simple case of "follow the money". The fossil fuel industry is a trillion dollar per year business and their interest is to keep it this way. So poisoning the well is a good strategy for them. If you thought about it, it was clear the bird argument was always just a talking point nimby types were fed with, so they have something alarming to repeat and to get outraged, witho…

>"follow the money". The fossil fuel industry is a trillion dollar per year business and their interest is to keep it this way.

Meanwhile, the green energy industry is not-for-profit, volunteer, altruistic and unbiased.

That's incredibly naive. If you don't think the global capitalists are moving towards a green transition, I'm not sure what to tell you.

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