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Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

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Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#151

Post by chaxor »

gwd wrote: post #126
godelski wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like you're describing a system that is a failure but that the solution is not to fix the system but to give up and do something else. Can we not fix academia? Is the signal of so many people, especially in CS, abandoning academia for industry not as clear of a sign as you can get? I feel crazy because it feels like everyone either does not want to admit the system is broken or will admit it but not want…

> This sounds like you're describing a system that is a failure but that the solution is not to fix the system but to give up and do something else. Can we not fix academia? The problem with academia is basic mathematics. In a system where there are a fixed number of tenured professorships, where each tenured professor has the job for life, each professor should produce only a single tenure-track PhD student in their…

I think they may have been commenting a bit more about the incentive structure and that any "prestigious researcher" or institution typically got there via questionable ethics, etc.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#152

Post by tnecniv »

godelski wrote: post #130
gwd wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sounds like you're describing a system that is a failure but that the solution is not to fix the system but to give up and do something else. Can we not fix academia? The problem with academia is basic mathematics. In a system where there are a fixed number of tenured professorships, where each tenured professor has the job for life, each professor should produce only a single tenure-track PhD student in their…

It's a bit worse than that. Prestige matters a lot too. General rule of thumb is that you can only apply to a position at a university of equal or lesser ranking than the one you were previously at. (obviously can still climb the ladder, in many ways, but this is a strong pattern all throughout the process from High School to Tenure) You're exactly right about the number of positions problem too. Because clearly the…

I just wanted to comment regarding the rule you mentioned and wanted to say that I was always told that, unofficially, you can always move up but only a tier at a time and you don’t want to move down if you can avoid it because then you likely have to move back up. The calculus does get harder though the longer you’re in the game — you might elect to move down because you’re significant other gets a promotion or you don’t want to uproot your family, etc.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#153

Post by godelski »

tnecniv wrote: post #152
godelski wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit worse than that. Prestige matters a lot too. General rule of thumb is that you can only apply to a position at a university of equal or lesser ranking than the one you were previously at. (obviously can still climb the ladder, in many ways, but this is a strong pattern all throughout the process from High School to Tenure) You're exactly right about the number of positions problem too. Because clearly the…

I just wanted to comment regarding the rule you mentioned and wanted to say that I was always told that, unofficially, you can always move up but only a tier at a time and you don’t want to move down if you can avoid it because then you likely have to move back up. The calculus does get harder though the longer you’re in the game — you might elect to move down because you’re significant other gets a promotion or you…

For sure, they aren't hard rules. There is also the aspect that locations matter to some people. It's worth noting though that universities have a unique negotiating token, in that you can also negotiate for a job for your partner as well. I think universities are often forced into this because of the natural location constraints.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#154

Post by tnecniv »

borroka wrote: post #118
tnecniv wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was still a PhD student, my advisor lamented that he couldn’t find postdocs to hire because big tech was paying them more for the same role with minimal constraints. If that kept going for a while, I imagine it’d put pressure on at least some parts of academia (CS and engineering don’t expect you to do a series of postdocs like biology does, and pure math has their own system of seniority I only know a little…

I think having trouble finding a postdoc is a good outcome of the process, the incentives in this case are working properly. Postdoc positions were designed as a short bridge between a PhD and a tenure-track position, not as a long-term crutch for people who are not ready to leave academic research.

When postdoc positions first were created, they were illusive and of high prestige. Then the idea got abused to add labor for professors to varying degrees depending on the field.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#155

Post by aleph_minus_one »

borroka wrote: post #106
godelski wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like you're describing a system that is a failure but that the solution is not to fix the system but to give up and do something else. Can we not fix academia? Is the signal of so many people, especially in CS, abandoning academia for industry not as clear of a sign as you can get? I feel crazy because it feels like everyone either does not want to admit the system is broken or will admit it but not want…

First, a postdoc on the way out of academia is not going to fix academia. Second, how is the system broken? There are mismanaged resources, some nepotism (in the U.S., a lot of nepotism if we look at countries other than the U.S. or the like), some research questions that are (wrongly) favored, but it doesn't change the fact that many more PhDs with academic career ambitions are being produced than there are (and wil…

> First, a postdoc on the way out of academia is not going to fix academia.

I disagree: just found an edtech startup for tertiary education or (post-)graduate level research.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#156

Post by tnecniv »

Aeolun wrote: post #146
thefaux wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before I left academia, I felt that I would be a terrible failure. The people I was surrounded by looked at leaving the academy as a sad admission of defeat. In retrospect, I think this was largely a reflection of their own insecurity and lack of perspective because most had never been outside of the academic bubble. Life on the outside is different. Having been gone over a decade, there are some things I miss and th…

It’s quite telling that you never see people in industry long for their time in academia.

Eh I think there’s a good chance they’re less vocal about it. My father is a lawyer and he chose between going into a legal career and doing a PhD in philosophy. If you asked him, he’d tell you he wished he didn’t latter now that he’s nearing the end of his legal career. I think that 1) there’s a smaller percentage of people that made the choice between academics and industry and chose industry 2) they’re not vocal about it for one reason or the other. Most of the people I went to undergrad with whom I thought could succeed in academia had zero interest in doing research at any level.

Academia is definitely not for everyone, but when I weighed my options I am happy I did my PhD regardless of how I feel at the moment. It’s a peculiar thing for peculiar people and the attraction does not correlate with intelligence.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#157

Post by theGnuMe »

tnecniv wrote: post #108
godelski wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like you're describing a system that is a failure but that the solution is not to fix the system but to give up and do something else. Can we not fix academia? Is the signal of so many people, especially in CS, abandoning academia for industry not as clear of a sign as you can get? I feel crazy because it feels like everyone either does not want to admit the system is broken or will admit it but not want…

When I was still a PhD student, my advisor lamented that he couldn’t find postdocs to hire because big tech was paying them more for the same role with minimal constraints. If that kept going for a while, I imagine it’d put pressure on at least some parts of academia (CS and engineering don’t expect you to do a series of postdocs like biology does, and pure math has their own system of seniority I only know a little…

We are in the big science phase of biology using AI. Individual labs and researchers will be hard pressed to compete but the worse part is the lack of original thinking.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#158

Post by kromem »

I used to include a bit about it into most of my presentations, and I recommend everyone read up on the over-justification effect.

One of the least widely known psychological effects relative to its impact on people's lives.

A nefarious little bugger that's hard to evade too.

Re: Feynman: I am burned out and I'll never accomplish anything (1985)

#160

Post by godelski »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #155
borroka wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, a postdoc on the way out of academia is not going to fix academia. Second, how is the system broken? There are mismanaged resources, some nepotism (in the U.S., a lot of nepotism if we look at countries other than the U.S. or the like), some research questions that are (wrongly) favored, but it doesn't change the fact that many more PhDs with academic career ambitions are being produced than there are (and wil…

> First, a postdoc on the way out of academia is not going to fix academia. I disagree: just found an edtech startup for tertiary education or (post-)graduate level research.

Honestly if I knew how to do this I would do it. How do I convince a bunch of billionaires to hand me money to do very fundamental research? Dream would be to have it be very open too and hire people from multiple domains but keep a high focus on being nuance and detail oriented. Honestly, I don't think companies like OpenAI are going to end up being the first to AGI because they get caught in the profit stages and so just pivot to say that more data and more compute is all you need. Maybe it is true, but I doubt it. And most certainly there are other ways considering a 3 pound piece of meat does it using less than a kW per day.
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