Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#11

Post by randomwalker » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 3:30 AM UTC

mynameishere wrote: post #8

randomwalker wrote: post #5

I find it disturbing that this is even controversial. First, the notion that there is an optimal "healthy" state is make-believe. We all get old and die, so in a sense we are all terminally ill. We should have a right to improve our minds and bodies as long as there is room for improvement. More to the point, brain types fall on a spectrum. ADHD is just one extreme. Equating "median" with "healthy" is a fallacy. Cons…

A hallmark of conservativism is to recognize that 90 percent of our behavior is much the same as occurred 2000 years ago, but many, many innovations came and went in between (Heroin: Cure for morphine addiction). What happened to them? They were tried, and they were discarded by the credible professions. Maybe these drugs are good. "Maybe". Most drug tests occur over a matter of months, rather than a lifetime. Caffei…

I guess that's why I'm not a conservative; I certainly don't agree with that statement. But it's not something you could prove or disprove factually, so let's just call it a difference of opinion.

What you linked to is actually a pretty mild side effect profile, although I take back "almost zero side effects." The maximum increase compared to placebo is 11% (for headaches), whereas the majority of people have caffeine-related headaches at some point.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#12

Post by mahipal » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 3:58 AM UTC

natrius wrote: post #9

randomwalker wrote: post #5

I find it disturbing that this is even controversial. First, the notion that there is an optimal "healthy" state is make-believe. We all get old and die, so in a sense we are all terminally ill. We should have a right to improve our minds and bodies as long as there is room for improvement. More to the point, brain types fall on a spectrum. ADHD is just one extreme. Equating "median" with "healthy" is a fallacy. Cons…

"Other drugs like modafinil have almost zero side-effects in comparison" Oh? I'd love to read the study on the safety of long term modafinil usage that you are doubtlessly referring to. I think it's ridiculous that the government prevents me from taking various substances, but claiming that poorly understood drugs are safe is ridiculous. No one even knows how modafinil works.

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Pharmacology

http://www.modafinil.com/

Sure, there's no long-term studies, but we can extrapolate from the receptors that it acts on and its relatively minor side effects that it wouldn't be too bad to take it over a long term. At least for it's main indication, ADHD, it's far better than the alternatives of Ritalin or Adderall.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#13

Post by Shamiq » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 4:05 AM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #6

jaxn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You trust the FDA to tell you what is safe and what is not?

No, where did you get that from??? I hope that FDA keeps those drugs unavailable for next 40 years, and during that time hundreds of organization and individual doctors around the world will be able to test the long-term safety.

That's an interesting notion.

What incentive does a drug company have into spending millions of dollars researching and developing a product to maybe reap benefits 40 years in the future? In a similar situation, I would move onto something more lucrative in a reasonable time frame. It's conceivable to imagine an industry completely stifled by having extremely high barriers to market entry.

Additionally, imagine being forced to use research that is at least 40 years behind the curve (undoubtedly it'll be more), when the new is available.

I understand you may have been exaggerating -- but this is still a good point to bring up.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#14

Post by mynameishere » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 4:59 AM UTC

kragen wrote: post #10

mynameishere wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hallmark of conservativism is to recognize that 90 percent of our behavior is much the same as occurred 2000 years ago, but many, many innovations came and went in between (Heroin: Cure for morphine addiction). What happened to them? They were tried, and they were discarded by the credible professions. Maybe these drugs are good. "Maybe". Most drug tests occur over a matter of months, rather than a lifetime. Caffei…

If I understand correctly, that page says that 34% of modafinil takers reported headaches, compared to 23% of non-modafinil takers, 11% reported nausea (vs. 3%), 7% reported nervousness (vs. 3%), and 5% reported insomnia (vs. 1%). What do you think the numbers for caffeine would be? Caffeine withdrawal is a major cause of headaches, and caffeine is a major cause of nervousness, insomnia, tachycardia, hypertension, di…

Caffeine has this other advantage: That certain beverages that contain it are culinarily exquisite. Same with ethanol (praise god).

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#15

Post by DenisM » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 5:06 AM UTC

Shamiq wrote: post #13

DenisM wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, where did you get that from??? I hope that FDA keeps those drugs unavailable for next 40 years, and during that time hundreds of organization and individual doctors around the world will be able to test the long-term safety.

That's an interesting notion. What incentive does a drug company have into spending millions of dollars researching and developing a product to maybe reap benefits 40 years in the future? In a similar situation, I would move onto something more lucrative in a reasonable time frame. It's conceivable to imagine an industry completely stifled by having extremely high barriers to market entry. Additionally, imagine being…

Well, not everything on earth should be done by the private businesses. This one can be financed by the public, knd of like the nuclear bomb and stuff.

Legal mind-enhancing drugs are a great danger to society. They will put everyone in the position where they have to take those drugs, or risk perpetual unemployment. If side effects surface decades later they will cripple entire population of the country because no one will be able to abstain. The same level of danger is not present in any other drug - there is currently no pressure to take drugs on anyone but small group of competitive athletes.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#16

Post by DenisM » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 5:17 AM UTC

randomwalker wrote: post #5

I find it disturbing that this is even controversial. First, the notion that there is an optimal "healthy" state is make-believe. We all get old and die, so in a sense we are all terminally ill. We should have a right to improve our minds and bodies as long as there is room for improvement. More to the point, brain types fall on a spectrum. ADHD is just one extreme. Equating "median" with "healthy" is a fallacy. Cons…

Here's the point you've missed: I can, and do, abstain from caffeine and pretty much all other drugs. Mind-enhancing drugs will become compulsory for everyone who want to keep their jobs - else competition will elbow them out. Imagine that in society with 99% uptake of a certain drug the sideffects start showing up after 40 years of intake. What then? Two full generations of cripples? Even the people who wanted to abstain would be victimized.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#17

Post by jamesbritt » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 5:18 AM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #15

Shamiq wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting notion. What incentive does a drug company have into spending millions of dollars researching and developing a product to maybe reap benefits 40 years in the future? In a similar situation, I would move onto something more lucrative in a reasonable time frame. It's conceivable to imagine an industry completely stifled by having extremely high barriers to market entry. Additionally, imagine being…

Well, not everything on earth should be done by the private businesses. This one can be financed by the public, knd of like the nuclear bomb and stuff. Legal mind-enhancing drugs are a great danger to society. They will put everyone in the position where they have to take those drugs, or risk perpetual unemployment. If side effects surface decades later they will cripple entire population of the country because no on…

"Legal mind-enhancing drugs are a great danger to society. They will put everyone in the position where they have to take those drugs, or risk perpetual unemployment."

Replace "drugs" with "education", and ask what should be done. Ban learning?

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#18

Post by auston » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 5:46 AM UTC

Modafinil seems to be an interesting way to augment your mental ability - No short term effects, except for a slightly increased heart rate. [see link for experiences]

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Modafinil.shtml

The long term effects would be a concern of mine if I was going to take it though.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#19

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 5:49 AM UTC

jaxn wrote: post #4

DenisM wrote: post #3

There could be nasty side-effects twenty years down the road, so I'd rather abstain. It would totally suck to be forced to take those drugs to remain cometitive, so I hope they will keep those drugs in limited circulation until their safety can be proven beyond doubt.

You trust the FDA to tell you what is safe and what is not?

Basically, yes.

Realistically, I am not going to read every single study on every single substance and make my own judgments. The government doing it for everyone, with force of law behind them, is better for all of us than just letting anyone sell anything and make any claims about it they want and expecting all of us to do all of our own research about everything.

Can the FDA make mistakes? Of course. Realistically, are they more likely to make a mistake than me, based on my own research and interpretation about things on which I am not an expert? No.

Re: Brain-boosting drugs for healthy people

#20

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 5:57 AM UTC

"But she said she was concerned that wider use of stimulants could lead more people to become addicted to them. That's what happened decades ago when they were widely prescribed for a variety of disorders, she said.

"Whether we like it or not, that property of stimulants is not going to go away," she said."

So, substances with a known history of addictive behavior. This is what we call burying the lede (quote from page 3 of the article). As important as the other considerations are that were brought up, this seems to trump them.

Do we know how addictive? Addictive like caffeine, or crack, or somewhere in between?