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"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#101

Post by showerst »

eli wrote: post #74
showerst wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's _entirely_ different from "If you do anything that will make anyone of {these protected classes} uncomfortable by saying/doing something relating to {their protected class} membership, we could be sued for hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, and you will be disciplined". HR lawsuits are a _huge_ risk, _especially_ for a small company, it seems like a no brainer for people smart enough to run an inter…

I agree with you, but set aside the risk of a lawsuit. Creating an office environment where some people feel uncomfortable or bullied is just wrong. It's also bad for business.

Absolutely!

I guess that I'm not surprised that people could want to set up environments that I consider wrong, or stupid, etc; that happens all the time.

My surprise is that a culture dominated by graduates from elite colleges who grew up with American norms can be completely blind to the idea of sexual harassment/protected class lawsuits.

Maybe it will just take one promising startup _in our industry_ to get totally sunk by a big lawsuit to really help change things, but if so that's a sad statement.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#102

Post by EvilTerran »

chc wrote: post #24
moron wrote: post #5

Sexting, rainbow parties, jenkem, and brogrammers. All of a piece.

You clearly missed the job ad a few months back explicitly requesting a "brogrammer" to fit in with the company culture. Sexting is also quite real (why would MMS be the one medium by which people choose not to send naked pictures of themselves?). So unless you have good proof of rainbow parties and jenkem, you're way off. Note for my rather ignorant downvoting friends: This was a real job ad from a YC company. It us…

I don't know how to refer people to the guidelines without appearing either rude or condescending... but they do say:

Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#103

Post by rada »

lotharbot wrote: post #56
dsr_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too…

> "Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis" Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. There are also social problems that contribute. But the gender ratio would not be 50-50 even in a completely egalitarian society. Women like my wife [0] are rare, partly because of "brogrammers" chasing them off, but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested…

The problem with brain chemistry and other "hard facts" is that they are always cherry-picked to justify one's position post factum.

Example: where I grew up, girls were considered to be better at technical disciplines because in class, girls sit still and pay attention while boys clown around and pick fights.

On a larger note, please don't add to the fire saying that women are less interested in any kind of intellectual pursuits, be it aspects of programming or else. This is exactly the kind of dickery that needs to go away.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#104

Post by briancurtin »

AkThhhpppt wrote: post #26
RandallBrown wrote: post #17

The brogrammer meme is JUST A JOKE! It's the very opposite of a stereotypical programmer. It's simply taking a stereotype, flipping it around, and poking fun at it. Instead of being disgusted by jokes about nudie calendars, do something about it. Go give your own presentation. Recruit more women at your company. Turn the boys club into an everyone club. I'm not saying that everything people are doing is okay, I'm jus…

Trying to tell people pulling this crap is wrong isn't doing something?

According to this guy you should just plow through and and just start recruiting females. It's that easy!

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#105

Post by stcredzero »

zheng wrote: post #68
RandallBrown wrote: post #17

The brogrammer meme is JUST A JOKE! It's the very opposite of a stereotypical programmer. It's simply taking a stereotype, flipping it around, and poking fun at it. Instead of being disgusted by jokes about nudie calendars, do something about it. Go give your own presentation. Recruit more women at your company. Turn the boys club into an everyone club. I'm not saying that everything people are doing is okay, I'm jus…

It started as just a joke, but I've personally seen more than one CS undergrad living out the brogrammer stereotype because they thought it was cool and was part of "startup culture". No joking involved. That's what scares me most about the joke. Its becoming a thing because people are too naive to realize that it isn't actually the new wave of best practices from the valley.

It started as just a joke, but I've personally seen more than one CS undergrad living out the brogrammer stereotype because they thought it was cool and was part of "startup culture". No joking involved.

Various movies marketed to teens have elicited similar "life imitates art" trends. Now it's hoax memes. When I was that age, it was the movie "Animal House."

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#107

Post by frankwiles »

batista wrote: post #89

TL;DR; A guy made some jokes anybody would fine perfectly acceptable (if not ho-hum), and a few tight-arsed politically correct prudes walked out as if he was citing from the Main Kampf, in order to show how anti-sexist they are. Political correctness: or why should the far right monopolize all the moralizing, fear of sexual references and plain old dirty jokes? Progressive people can be prudish squares too. Oh: and…

"A guy made some jokes anybody would fine perfectly acceptable" I don't find those jokes "perfectly acceptable", not even close.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#108

Post by adolph »

gdubs wrote: post #13

Interesting and well-written article, but one big problem: why throw in the Siri abortion thing? It wasn't needed to legitimize the author's point, and if anything comes across as technically naive. While Siri contains easter eggs that were manually added by programmers, the vast majority of searches would have to be algorithmic. Siri fails to find an answer to many basic queries, so to say that the lack of a respons…

I agree with you and think it would be interesting to take a look at the world-view presented by the easter eggs or other special case affordances that exist and how they affect the folks who use the software.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#109

Post by EvilTerran »

debacle wrote: post #31
moron wrote: post #5

Sexting, rainbow parties, jenkem, and brogrammers. All of a piece.

What, pray tell, is jenkem?

IIRC, an urban-legendary intoxicating gas allegedly created by, ahem, fermenting stool in plastic bottles.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#110

Post by devs1010 »

shawnc wrote: post #67
othermaciej wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too weak. Too sensitive. Too illogical. Do you have any citations for that? My impression is that nursing and teaching were considered women's work before they even existed as distinct professions. Nursing was originally done by women's religious orders, and was founded in its modern form by a woman, Florence Nightingale. And tea…

Could it be, there's less women in programming because it's just starting to rise as someplace they're needed? Or as something just now becoming 'visible' enough to get their attention? It could be something that starts out much earlier in life. I got into computers very early. The only person in my class at the time that cared for them was also a male. Even still, the act of programming itself just doesn't draw many…

At the expense of sounding non-PC, I have noticed that the vast number of females who I have worked with as programmers are foreign-born (I'm in the U.S.), mostly from India. Usually, I get the feeling that they did get into programming later on (probably were pushed down the path by someone when they went to university). I'm not going to try to analyze what this means but its simply an observation.
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